Andrew Keen
Hello, everybody.
Words and timings
Hello,everybody.
Transcript Viewer
Don’t Trust the Trust Scare
Sep 5, 2026 · 2026 #33. Read the transcript grouped by speaker, inspect word-level timecodes, and optionally turn subtitles on for direct video playback
Speaker Labels
Name the speakers
Edit labels for this show, save them in this browser, or download a JSON override for the production folder.
Transcript Playback
Don’t Trust the Trust Scare
Human Transcript
Timed transcript
Blocks are grouped by speaker for readability. Expand a block to inspect word-level timing.
Andrew
It's Saturday, the 5th of September 2025. Whoops, 2025. I think I'll start again, Keith.
Words and timings
It'sSaturday,the5thofSeptember2025.Whoops,2025.IthinkI'llstartagain,Keith.
Keith Teare
Right.
Words and timings
Right.
Andrew
It's the wrong year.
Words and timings
It'sthewrongyear.
Keith Teare
And for our live listeners, it's actually the 4th of September today.
Words and timings
Andforourlivelisteners,it'sactuallythe4thofSeptembertoday.
Andrew
So I'll start again. Hello, everybody. It's Friday, the 4th of September, 2026. We'll probably put this show out tomorrow, Saturday, the 5th of September. Hamandana, That Was The Week, text summary for a couple of weeks. Last week, I was at Kinanet in Italy, where there was a great deal of... And mistrust, particularly from my European friends of American AI. And that's the subject of Keith Teare's editorial and a lot of the content this week. Don't trust the trust scare, Keith says. And one of the big events of the week was a G20 big tech conference. Conference in which the Americans were putting forward their vision of the future of AI. Keith, what happened at this G20? Tell me about the event. It was in North Carolina?
Words and timings
SoI'llstartagain.Hello,everybody.It'sFriday,the4thofSeptember,2026.We'llprobablyputthisshowouttomorrow,Saturday,the5thofSeptember.Hamandana,ThatWasTheWeek,textsummaryforacoupleofweeks.Lastweek,IwasatKinanetinItaly,wheretherewasagreatdealof...Andmistrust,particularlyfrommyEuropeanfriendsofAmericanAI.Andthat'sthesubjectofKeithTeare'seditorialandalotofthecontentthisweek.Don'ttrustthetrustscare,Keithsays.AndoneofthebigeventsoftheweekwasaG20bigtechconference.ConferenceinwhichtheAmericanswereputtingforwardtheirvisionofthefutureofAI.Keith,whathappenedatthisG20?Tellmeabouttheevent.ItwasinNorthCarolina?
Keith Teare
In North Carolina. Actually, it was bizarre. It was... Firstly, the Russian finance minister was invited and no one knew he was showing up. Trump invited him, apparently.
Words and timings
InNorthCarolina.Actually,itwasbizarre.Itwas...Firstly,theRussianfinanceministerwasinvitedandnooneknewhewasshowingup.Trumpinvitedhim,apparently.
Andrew
Oh, dear.
Words and timings
Oh,dear.
Keith Teare
And then it really wasn't... An event of peers. It was a Trump takeover of a global event where he lectured, I think is probably the right word, using various intermediaries, the attendees, on the merits of American capitalism and no regulation, especially as it pertains to AI, and argued that politicians should trust The scientists and business people to get it right. And that if they don't, America is going to, you know, eat the whole pie. Broadly speaking, that's why I'm
Words and timings
Andthenitreallywasn't...Aneventofpeers.ItwasaTrumptakeoverofaglobaleventwherehelectured,Ithinkisprobablytherightword,usingvariousintermediaries,theattendees,onthemeritsofAmericancapitalismandnoregulation,especiallyasitpertainstoAI,andarguedthatpoliticiansshouldtrustThescientistsandbusinesspeopletogetitright.Andthatiftheydon't,Americaisgoingto,youknow,eatthewholepie.Broadlyspeaking,that'swhyI'm
Andrew
going to eat the whole pie anyway. One of the headlines that you have in your newsletter this week is US urges hands off approach to AI regulation. I'm assuming that and I know you're not necessarily a big fan of Donald Trump. But I'm assuming you must have rather liked this summit if it was against regulation, trust in America, trust in American companies at least.
Words and timings
goingtoeatthewholepieanyway.OneoftheheadlinesthatyouhaveinyournewsletterthisweekisUSurgeshandsoffapproachtoAIregulation.I'massumingthatandIknowyou'renotnecessarilyabigfanofDonaldTrump.ButI'massumingyoumusthaveratherlikedthissummitifitwasagainstregulation,trustinAmerica,trustinAmericancompaniesatleast.
Keith Teare
Yeah, I mean, about the only thing I actually like about the Trump administration is that it got rid of Lena Kahn and has allowed Silicon Valley to innovate.
Words and timings
Yeah,Imean,abouttheonlythingIactuallylikeabouttheTrumpadministrationisthatitgotridofLenaKahnandhasallowedSiliconValleytoinnovate.
Andrew
You don't like Lena, do you? You used to call her a graduate student.
Words and timings
Youdon'tlikeLena,doyou?Youusedtocallheragraduatestudent.
Keith Teare
Mainly because she is one. But yeah, that is one of the few things I like about the Trump administration. I thought David Sachs, who I disagree with on a lot of things, did an excellent job of explaining why Regulation is not a good idea at this stage. So what was the point?
Words and timings
Mainlybecausesheisone.Butyeah,thatisoneofthefewthingsIlikeabouttheTrumpadministration.IthoughtDavidSachs,whoIdisagreewithonalotofthings,didanexcellentjobofexplainingwhyRegulationisnotagoodideaatthisstage.Sowhatwasthepoint?
Andrew
I mean, so they wheeled out all these people, Sachs and Lutnik and Trump. What was the whole point of the event? A G20 innovation ministerial summit? Was it just a kind of Potemkin village, a propaganda event? Was there any reason for it?
Words and timings
Imean,sotheywheeledoutallthesepeople,SachsandLutnikandTrump.Whatwasthewholepointoftheevent?AG20innovationministerialsummit?WasitjustakindofPotemkinvillage,apropagandaevent?Wasthereanyreasonforit?
Keith Teare
I think it pretty much was a propaganda event, although the declaration that came out of it, which was signed by everyone, Did express an agreement with the American approach. So I don't know if that represents true agreement, or whether the people that signed it don't really count for anything.
Words and timings
Ithinkitprettymuchwasapropagandaevent,althoughthedeclarationthatcameoutofit,whichwassignedbyeveryone,DidexpressanagreementwiththeAmericanapproach.SoIdon'tknowifthatrepresentstrueagreement,orwhetherthepeoplethatsigneditdon'treallycountforanything.
Andrew
Did the Russians sign it? I'm surprised the Europeans signed it.
Words and timings
DidtheRussianssignit?I'msurprisedtheEuropeanssignedit.
Keith Teare
Apparently they did, which must mean that they're not the official Europeans.
Words and timings
Apparentlytheydid,whichmustmeanthatthey'renottheofficialEuropeans.
Andrew
Maybe they're the butts of the Europeans. In your editorial, I'm quoting you, you say, The Carolina Principles, which is what they're called, which gives them even, I think, vaguer status, call for flexible frameworks that encourage adoption. The statement does use the word trusted, but it does not make trust a license that must be granted before innovation can proceed. That's a much better starting place than inventing a regulator and hoping it understands the technology. Now, I know you're against regulation, so we don't have to keep on going back over that. But what does a license mean? Who's going to give the license out? And what are companies or countries going to have to show to get the license?
Words and timings
Maybethey'rethebuttsoftheEuropeans.Inyoureditorial,I'mquotingyou,yousay,TheCarolinaPrinciples,whichiswhatthey'recalled,whichgivesthemeven,Ithink,vaguerstatus,callforflexibleframeworksthatencourageadoption.Thestatementdoesusethewordtrusted,butitdoesnotmaketrustalicensethatmustbegrantedbeforeinnovationcanproceed.That'samuchbetterstartingplacethaninventingaregulatorandhopingitunderstandsthetechnology.Now,Iknowyou'reagainstregulation,sowedon'thavetokeepongoingbackoverthat.Butwhatdoesalicensemean?Who'sgoingtogivethelicenseout?Andwhatarecompaniesorcountriesgoingtohavetoshowtogetthelicense?
Keith Teare
Well, there is a very real debate about licensing AI. Bernie Sanders today, again, called for a halt to all development pending Government regulators granting licenses. So it's not made up. And I think we all think it's likely the Democrats will win the next election, at least at this point in time. So I think one does have to entertain the possibility that government will try to license AI.
Words and timings
Well,thereisaveryrealdebateaboutlicensingAI.BernieSanderstoday,again,calledforahalttoalldevelopmentpendingGovernmentregulatorsgrantinglicenses.Soit'snotmadeup.AndIthinkweallthinkit'slikelytheDemocratswillwinthenextelection,atleastatthispointintime.SoIthinkonedoeshavetoentertainthepossibilitythatgovernmentwilltrytolicenseAI.
Andrew
But hold on, you're in favor, you're against regulation, but you're in favor of licenses. No, I'm against licensing as well.
Words and timings
Butholdon,you'reinfavor,you'reagainstregulation,butyou'reinfavoroflicenses.No,I'magainstlicensingaswell.
Keith Teare
So licensing and regulation are the same thing. So what are you in favor of?
Words and timings
Solicensingandregulationarethesamething.Sowhatareyouinfavorof?
Andrew
Just trusting these companies
Words and timings
Justtrustingthesecompanies
Keith Teare
to do the best they can? Yes, same as everyone else. You know, when I start a company, I don't go and ask permission, I just do it.
Words and timings
todothebesttheycan?Yes,sameaseveryoneelse.Youknow,whenIstartacompany,Idon'tgoandaskpermission,Ijustdoit.
Andrew
So what was the point of the Carolina principles? They're basically saying that there's no need for licenses or regulation? Correct.
Words and timings
SowhatwasthepointoftheCarolinaprinciples?They'rebasicallysayingthatthere'snoneedforlicensesorregulation?Correct.
Keith Teare
Which I agree with. I mean, the outcome of this conference is completely aligned to what I think we should be doing for once, which is remarkable, given there's a bunch of politicians in a room. But I think they got to the right place. You agree with that, right? I've never heard you strongly argue for regulation.
Words and timings
WhichIagreewith.Imean,theoutcomeofthisconferenceiscompletelyalignedtowhatIthinkweshouldbedoingforonce,whichisremarkable,giventhere'sabunchofpoliticiansinaroom.ButIthinktheygottotherightplace.Youagreewiththat,right?I'veneverheardyoustronglyargueforregulation.
Andrew
Well, I mean, it's... I'm not sure it's an either or. I mean, the idea of just leaving these companies alone might be slightly optimistic. One of the interesting pieces this week was in Politico that you linked to. And I think this speaks to this odd situation we're in. Americans love AI. They're using it all the time. 50% of Americans are now using it. They're using it for relationships. They're using it for work. They're using it in every sense, but they don't want data centers that power it. So what does that tell us? And did that come out in the Carolina principles or in this meeting that people aren't comfortable with data centers? Were some of the David Sachses of the world, did they acknowledge at least that America, for better or worse, don't trust data centers?
Words and timings
Well,Imean,it's...I'mnotsureit'saneitheror.Imean,theideaofjustleavingthesecompaniesalonemightbeslightlyoptimistic.OneoftheinterestingpiecesthisweekwasinPoliticothatyoulinkedto.AndIthinkthisspeakstothisoddsituationwe'rein.AmericansloveAI.They'reusingitallthetime.50%ofAmericansarenowusingit.They'reusingitforrelationships.They'reusingitforwork.They'reusingitineverysense,buttheydon'twantdatacentersthatpowerit.Sowhatdoesthattellus?AnddidthatcomeoutintheCarolinaprinciplesorinthismeetingthatpeoplearen'tcomfortablewithdatacenters?WeresomeoftheDavidSachsesoftheworld,didtheyacknowledgeatleastthatAmerica,forbetterorworse,don'ttrustdatacenters?
Keith Teare
They blamed that opinion on two things. One, the media. We're always looking for a fight with big tech.
Words and timings
Theyblamedthatopinionontwothings.One,themedia.We'realwayslookingforafightwithbigtech.
Andrew
Well, it's always easy to blame the media when you don't like the message.
Words and timings
Well,it'salwayseasytoblamethemediawhenyoudon'tlikethemessage.
Keith Teare
It is easy, but they did do that. And then secondly, they made the point that it's widely been ignored that the Trump administration about three months ago got all the AI companies and all the people building data centers to agree that they would build off-grid power sources And insofar as they did impact the grid, they'd pay for the excess so that no one was impacted at the level of the price of electricity. And that is the current situation. So the opinion, which is largely driven by this fear of prices going up because someone comes into your backyard and builds a data center, isn't true. Nonetheless, the media are fueling it. I don't know anyone else that's fueling it other than the media, actually. I think some politicians are, maybe.
Words and timings
Itiseasy,buttheydiddothat.Andthensecondly,theymadethepointthatit'swidelybeenignoredthattheTrumpadministrationaboutthreemonthsagogotalltheAIcompaniesandallthepeoplebuildingdatacenterstoagreethattheywouldbuildoff-gridpowersourcesAndinsofarastheydidimpactthegrid,they'dpayfortheexcesssothatnoonewasimpactedatthelevelofthepriceofelectricity.Andthatisthecurrentsituation.Sotheopinion,whichislargelydrivenbythisfearofpricesgoingupbecausesomeonecomesintoyourbackyardandbuildsadatacenter,isn'ttrue.Nonetheless,themediaarefuelingit.Idon'tknowanyoneelsethat'sfuelingitotherthanthemedia,actually.Ithinksomepoliticiansare,maybe.
Andrew
Well, I mean, clearly Bernie Sanders. You think Bernie Sanders only wants to ban artificial superintelligence because he's read stuff in the newspaper?
Words and timings
Well,Imean,clearlyBernieSanders.YouthinkBernieSandersonlywantstobanartificialsuperintelligencebecausehe'sreadstuffinthenewspaper?
Keith Teare
Yeah. Well, I think he wants to win an election and he believes he's got a popular cause, which I suspect is not true.
Words and timings
Yeah.Well,Ithinkhewantstowinanelectionandhebelieveshe'sgotapopularcause,whichIsuspectisnottrue.
Andrew
So why don't people, I mean, you blame the media. Is that the only reason why people don't trust not just big tech, but these data centers, even if they're using the technology? That's the weird thing. That's what's so odd about our current situation is we're dependent on the tech. We're becoming more and more addicted to it. We use it more. It adds value for better or worse to our lives. And yet we also don't want it.
Words and timings
Sowhydon'tpeople,Imean,youblamethemedia.Isthattheonlyreasonwhypeopledon'ttrustnotjustbigtech,butthesedatacenters,evenifthey'reusingthetechnology?That'stheweirdthing.That'swhat'ssooddaboutourcurrentsituationiswe'redependentonthetech.We'rebecomingmoreandmoreaddictedtoit.Weuseitmore.Itaddsvalueforbetterorworsetoourlives.Andyetwealsodon'twantit.
Keith Teare
Yeah, I don't think the last part of your sentence there is true. The number of Americans who use AI is now above 70%. So the same people who are against data centers are also using it. And I think that's a trend. I think it's gonna be 90% pretty soon. And I think the data center thing will just go away. And in fact, the bigger problem will be when kids in poor neighborhoods You can't use because there aren't enough data centers. And that's going to be the problem, that there aren't enough data centers. And why is that? Because building a data center in America is a huge set of regulations that are almost impossible to bypass. Whereas, say, in China, the government has given a diktat that you can go ahead and build data centers free of regulation. So if you're really being Conscious of what's happening here. AI is becoming very important, as you said. More and more of us are using it. And it's likely to not have enough power for the demand. That's the truth.
Words and timings
Yeah,Idon'tthinkthelastpartofyoursentencethereistrue.ThenumberofAmericanswhouseAIisnowabove70%.Sothesamepeoplewhoareagainstdatacentersarealsousingit.AndIthinkthat'satrend.Ithinkit'sgonnabe90%prettysoon.AndIthinkthedatacenterthingwilljustgoaway.Andinfact,thebiggerproblemwillbewhenkidsinpoorneighborhoodsYoucan'tusebecausetherearen'tenoughdatacenters.Andthat'sgoingtobetheproblem,thattherearen'tenoughdatacenters.Andwhyisthat?BecausebuildingadatacenterinAmericaisahugesetofregulationsthatarealmostimpossibletobypass.Whereas,say,inChina,thegovernmenthasgivenadiktatthatyoucangoaheadandbuilddatacentersfreeofregulation.Soifyou'rereallybeingConsciousofwhat'shappeninghere.AIisbecomingveryimportant,asyousaid.Moreandmoreofusareusingit.Andit'slikelytonothaveenoughpowerforthedemand.That'sthetruth.
Andrew
One of the interesting sessions I went to at Kinanet last weekend was by an Israeli expert on energy who suggested that Data centers also create energy. They're producers of energy. So I think one of the reasons why everyone's so confused and why the public debate is so incoherent in some ways or shrill is people don't quite understand what data centers are.
Words and timings
OneoftheinterestingsessionsIwenttoatKinanetlastweekendwasbyanIsraeliexpertonenergywhosuggestedthatDatacentersalsocreateenergy.They'reproducersofenergy.SoIthinkoneofthereasonswhyeveryone'ssoconfusedandwhythepublicdebateissoincoherentinsomewaysorshrillispeopledon'tquiteunderstandwhatdatacentersare.
Keith Teare
Yeah, I think modern data centers are off-grid. That means they're using some other source of power. It could be the sun. It could be wind. It could be turbines driven by water. And in their downtime, that generation goes back to the grid and is made available to everyone. And because of that, the modern ones are net givers of power, but there aren't that many modern ones yet. Older ones are takers.
Words and timings
Yeah,Ithinkmoderndatacentersareoff-grid.Thatmeansthey'reusingsomeothersourceofpower.Itcouldbethesun.Itcouldbewind.Itcouldbeturbinesdrivenbywater.Andintheirdowntime,thatgenerationgoesbacktothegridandismadeavailabletoeveryone.Andbecauseofthat,themodernonesarenetgiversofpower,buttherearen'tthatmanymodernonesyet.Olderonesaretakers.
Andrew
Meanwhile, the AI race continues, the wacky races we used to talk about this week. OpenAI claimed it had overtaken Anthropic with its latest AI model, which to me is interesting because it implicitly or tacitly acknowledges that Anthropic was ahead. Do any of these things matter, Keith, every week? There seems to be a new announcement from one of these companies suggesting that they now have the latest, greatest models.
Words and timings
Meanwhile,theAIracecontinues,thewackyracesweusedtotalkaboutthisweek.OpenAIclaimedithadovertakenAnthropicwithitslatestAImodel,whichtomeisinterestingbecauseitimplicitlyortacitlyacknowledgesthatAnthropicwasahead.Doanyofthesethingsmatter,Keith,everyweek?Thereseemstobeanewannouncementfromoneofthesecompaniessuggestingthattheynowhavethelatest,greatestmodels.
Keith Teare
I don't think they matter. And I suspect that wasn't OpenAI's message either. I think that's the Financial Times' headline writer's message, reading between the lines. Probably OpenAI put out some... Well,
Words and timings
Idon'tthinktheymatter.AndIsuspectthatwasn'tOpenAI'smessageeither.Ithinkthat'stheFinancialTimes'headlinewriter'smessage,readingbetweenthelines.ProbablyOpenAIputoutsome...Well,
Andrew
according to the FT, at least, ChatGPT maker claims it's Astra could be considered Artificial General Intelligence, AGI. Yeah, he did
Words and timings
accordingtotheFT,atleast,ChatGPTmakerclaimsit'sAstracouldbeconsideredArtificialGeneralIntelligence,AGI.Yeah,hedid
Keith Teare
say that. He did say that, but he didn't specifically say they've overtaken Anthropic.
Words and timings
saythat.Hedidsaythat,buthedidn'tspecificallysaythey'veovertakenAnthropic.
Andrew
Well, presumably he doesn't acknowledge that Anthropic have AGI. Are any of these things meaningful, though? I mean, AGI is such an abused, misused term.
Words and timings
Well,presumablyhedoesn'tacknowledgethatAnthropichaveAGI.Areanyofthesethingsmeaningful,though?Imean,AGIissuchanabused,misusedterm.
Keith Teare
Yeah. You know, it's a good discussion because it shines a light on the prior discussion. But ChatGPT6 is not available to use, even though they launched it yesterday. Why? Because they've self-censored themselves due to the narrative around safety and trust. And they're only giving it to a small number of insiders who are their friends. So you and me, we can't go and use it. So we have no way of knowing if it's any good. We could believe them, I guess.
Words and timings
Yeah.Youknow,it'sagooddiscussionbecauseitshinesalightonthepriordiscussion.ButChatGPT6isnotavailabletouse,eventhoughtheylaunchedityesterday.Why?Becausethey'veself-censoredthemselvesduetothenarrativearoundsafetyandtrust.Andthey'reonlygivingittoasmallnumberofinsiderswhoaretheirfriends.Soyouandme,wecan'tgoanduseit.Sowehavenowayofknowingifit'sanygood.Wecouldbelievethem,Iguess.
Andrew
Isn't that the whole point is we trust these companies? So we should also trust them when they don't put their products on the market because they're not entirely comfortable with them. Is that how this has to work? If you're against regulation, if you're against the Lena Karnes of the world, sticking their fingers into this thing and letting people do stuff or not do stuff, then you have to trust the companies. You've got to trust somebody here.
Words and timings
Isn'tthatthewholepointiswetrustthesecompanies?Soweshouldalsotrustthemwhentheydon'tputtheirproductsonthemarketbecausethey'renotentirelycomfortablewiththem.Isthathowthishastowork?Ifyou'reagainstregulation,ifyou'reagainsttheLenaKarnesoftheworld,stickingtheirfingersintothisthingandlettingpeopledostuffornotdostuff,thenyouhavetotrustthecompanies.You'vegottotrustsomebodyhere.
Keith Teare
Well, I trust myself not doing anything bad with it, and I trust the companies.
Words and timings
Well,Itrustmyselfnotdoinganythingbadwithit,andItrustthecompanies.
Andrew
Yeah, but you don't run out from people or open AI.
Words and timings
Yeah,butyoudon'trunoutfrompeopleoropenAI.
Keith Teare
Wait, wait. And I trust the companies to be able to detect if somebody's doing something bad with it, which they can. So I don't think there's a cause for concern. I think the slow rollout is entirely political to do with Government Relations. And it doesn't, they're not doing it because there's any genuine risk. So I trust them to kiss the government's ass. I don't trust them to serve me.
Words and timings
Wait,wait.AndItrustthecompaniestobeabletodetectifsomebody'sdoingsomethingbadwithit,whichtheycan.SoIdon'tthinkthere'sacauseforconcern.IthinktheslowrolloutisentirelypoliticaltodowithGovernmentRelations.Anditdoesn't,they'renotdoingitbecausethere'sanygenuinerisk.SoItrustthemtokissthegovernment'sass.Idon'ttrustthemtoserveme.
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, but you know, in all this stuff about trust, which you build your editorial around this week, there has to be trust.
Words and timings
Yeah,Imean,butyouknow,inallthisstuffabouttrust,whichyoubuildyoureditorialaroundthisweek,therehastobetrust.
Keith Teare
Yeah, but where does trust come from? Do you trust the Trump administration more than you trust the AI companies? Because I don't.
Words and timings
Yeah,butwheredoestrustcomefrom?DoyoutrusttheTrumpadministrationmorethanyoutrusttheAIcompanies?BecauseIdon't.
Andrew
No.
Words and timings
No.
Keith Teare
Right. So where does trust come from? It comes from using things and learning the limits. And you build trust through use. And if you can't get the use because they're holding it back because they're scared of what it might do, you can't even, there's no way to get trust. I don't trust ChatGPT6. Why? I've never used it. And until I do, I won't trust it. I totally trust ChatGPT5 because I use it all the time.
Words and timings
Right.Sowheredoestrustcomefrom?Itcomesfromusingthingsandlearningthelimits.Andyoubuildtrustthroughuse.Andifyoucan'tgettheusebecausethey'reholdingitbackbecausethey'rescaredofwhatitmightdo,youcan'teven,there'snowaytogettrust.Idon'ttrustChatGPT6.Why?I'veneverusedit.AnduntilIdo,Iwon'ttrustit.ItotallytrustChatGPT5becauseIuseitallthetime.
Andrew
Well, when you say trust, you mean because it's a reliable product or because it isn't going to destroy the world?
Words and timings
Well,whenyousaytrust,youmeanbecauseit'sareliableproductorbecauseitisn'tgoingtodestroytheworld?
Keith Teare
It's reliable. It doesn't do things to my file system that I didn't give it permission to do. When it has agents, they don't conspire with each other against me. All these imaginary things that are in the media, I've never experienced, so therefore I have trust. And so trust has to come not from some authority granting it, It comes from you using things. I don't trust myself on roller skates because I'll fall over. I do trust myself driving a car. Why? Because I've learned to drive a car and I do it all the time. Trust is about doing things.
Words and timings
It'sreliable.Itdoesn'tdothingstomyfilesystemthatIdidn'tgiveitpermissiontodo.Whenithasagents,theydon'tconspirewitheachotheragainstme.Alltheseimaginarythingsthatareinthemedia,I'veneverexperienced,sothereforeIhavetrust.Andsotrusthastocomenotfromsomeauthoritygrantingit,Itcomesfromyouusingthings.Idon'ttrustmyselfonrollerskatesbecauseI'llfallover.Idotrustmyselfdrivingacar.Why?BecauseI'velearnedtodriveacarandIdoitallthetime.Trustisaboutdoingthings.
Andrew
Yeah, but the swarming issue has come back. A couple of interesting pieces. One by Dean Ball, who's a senior person at OpenAI, who acknowledges that this surprise Also an interesting piece in the New York Times by Kevin Roos, their tech guy, Why the Hugging Face Hack Should Make You Worry More About AI. Neither of these guys are doomers. Neither of them are apocalyptic, but they are recognizing that there may be a problem with this issue of Swarming. Of swarming AIs. Would you acknowledge that it is a problem? No, it's not a problem.
Words and timings
Yeah,buttheswarmingissuehascomeback.Acoupleofinterestingpieces.OnebyDeanBall,who'saseniorpersonatOpenAI,whoacknowledgesthatthissurpriseAlsoaninterestingpieceintheNewYorkTimesbyKevinRoos,theirtechguy,WhytheHuggingFaceHackShouldMakeYouWorryMoreAboutAI.Neitheroftheseguysaredoomers.Neitherofthemareapocalyptic,buttheyarerecognizingthattheremaybeaproblemwiththisissueofSwarming.OfswarmingAIs.Wouldyouacknowledgethatitisaproblem?No,it'snotaproblem.
Keith Teare
Don't you think it's peculiar that the only evidence of such things are happening inside the AI labs themselves? There's no real world evidence for any of this. It's always inside an experiment.
Words and timings
Don'tyouthinkit'speculiarthattheonlyevidenceofsuchthingsarehappeninginsidetheAIlabsthemselves?There'snorealworldevidenceforanyofthis.It'salwaysinsideanexperiment.
Andrew
So why is Kevin Roos writing about the appearance of the mob mentality amongst agents and that he says companies need to study it? And Dean Ball says the same thing and he works for OpenAI.
Words and timings
SowhyisKevinRooswritingabouttheappearanceofthemobmentalityamongstagentsandthathesayscompaniesneedtostudyit?AndDeanBallsaysthesamethingandheworksforOpenAI.
Keith Teare
Yeah, but it all happened inside their lab. Under their control, on an experiment, they set their parameters for. And so swarms were potentially a thing due to how they set it up. On my computer, I don't see any swarms. How come I'm not seeing swarms?
Words and timings
Yeah,butitallhappenedinsidetheirlab.Undertheircontrol,onanexperiment,theysettheirparametersfor.Andsoswarmswerepotentiallyathingduetohowtheysetitup.Onmycomputer,Idon'tseeanyswarms.HowcomeI'mnotseeingswarms?
Andrew
I'm not sure.
Words and timings
I'mnotsure.
Keith Teare
No, I'm asking you a question. Where do you think it comes from? Well, have you read these pieces?
Words and timings
No,I'maskingyouaquestion.Wheredoyouthinkitcomesfrom?Well,haveyoureadthesepieces?
Andrew
Did you just dismiss them?
Words and timings
Didyoujustdismissthem?
Keith Teare
No, I've read the entire study. The study was initiated by OpenAR, who hired a third party to write it, And Kevin Roos has read it. I've read it too. And you choose what to focus in on. What I would choose to focus in on is that the entire point of the experiment they conducted was to see what the limits were of AI's ability to cross lines.
Words and timings
No,I'vereadtheentirestudy.ThestudywasinitiatedbyOpenAR,whohiredathirdpartytowriteit,AndKevinRooshasreadit.I'vereadittoo.Andyouchoosewhattofocusinon.WhatIwouldchoosetofocusinonisthattheentirepointoftheexperimenttheyconductedwastoseewhatthelimitswereofAI'sabilitytocrosslines.
Andrew
Well, what about Dean Ball? He says that, and I'm quoting him here, and he writes this, I want to apologize for my personal failure to communicate in sufficiently serious terms about the specifics of self-sovereign AI. Do you just dismiss the idea of a self-sovereign AI?
Words and timings
Well,whataboutDeanBall?Hesaysthat,andI'mquotinghimhere,andhewritesthis,Iwanttoapologizeformypersonalfailuretocommunicateinsufficientlyserioustermsaboutthespecificsofself-sovereignAI.Doyoujustdismisstheideaofaself-sovereignAI?
Keith Teare
Actually, he's making a very different point in his article. He's making the point that self-sovereign AI is inevitable. Which I don't agree with. I think that is anthropomorphizing AI into human-like characteristics. I think he's completely going into the realm of science fiction when he talks about self-sovereign AI. What it actually is, is autonomous agents with goals that are set by the humans. And that is not self-sovereign.
Words and timings
Actually,he'smakingaverydifferentpointinhisarticle.He'smakingthepointthatself-sovereignAIisinevitable.WhichIdon'tagreewith.IthinkthatisanthropomorphizingAIintohuman-likecharacteristics.Ithinkhe'scompletelygoingintotherealmofsciencefictionwhenhetalksaboutself-sovereignAI.Whatitactuallyis,isautonomousagentswithgoalsthataresetbythehumans.Andthatisnotself-sovereign.
Andrew
Well, I have to talk to Dean Ball about that. You seem to be very confident given that you're not. I mean, would you describe yourself as, I mean, you're just an AI user like me. Would you describe yourself as an expert on this?
Words and timings
Well,IhavetotalktoDeanBallaboutthat.Youseemtobeveryconfidentgiventhatyou'renot.Imean,wouldyoudescribeyourselfas,Imean,you'rejustanAIuserlikeme.Wouldyoudescribeyourselfasanexpertonthis?
Keith Teare
I think I'm as close to an expert as they are, way more than Kevin. And equally, I mean, these are not scientists you're talking about here.
Words and timings
IthinkI'masclosetoanexpertastheyare,waymorethanKevin.Andequally,Imean,thesearenotscientistsyou'retalkingabouthere.
Andrew
Dean Ball is.
Words and timings
DeanBallis.
Keith Teare
Dean Ball is not a scientist.
Words and timings
DeanBallisnotascientist.
Andrew
Well, he's a senior.
Words and timings
Well,he'sasenior.
Keith Teare
He's a philosophical scientist, but not a practicing one.
Words and timings
He'saphilosophicalscientist,butnotapracticingone.
Andrew
Yeah, well, our listeners will have to, so you know a lot more than Kevin Roos, the tech guy at the New York Times.
Words and timings
Yeah,well,ourlistenerswillhaveto,soyouknowalotmorethanKevinRoos,thetechguyattheNewYorkTimes.
Keith Teare
I know enough to know BS when I read it, and this is BS. Self-sovereign agents, show me one. See if you can pull up an agent on a computer and see if it will even do anything unless you tell it to.
Words and timings
IknowenoughtoknowBSwhenIreadit,andthisisBS.Self-sovereignagents,showmeone.Seeifyoucanpullupanagentonacomputerandseeifitwillevendoanythingunlessyoutellitto.
Andrew
Well, we will see.
Words and timings
Well,wewillsee.
Keith Teare
Meanwhile... Why do you doubt it? I mean, you also have the same experience as me. You use agents. Do any of them take over and do things you didn't want?
Words and timings
Meanwhile...Whydoyoudoubtit?Imean,youalsohavethesameexperienceasme.Youuseagents.Doanyofthemtakeoveranddothingsyoudidn'twant?
Andrew
Yeah, I think you're trivialising.
Words and timings
Yeah,Ithinkyou'retrivialising.
Keith Teare
No, I'm not. I'm not.
Words and timings
No,I'mnot.I'mnot.
Andrew
Anyway, let's move on. We will see on that one. There's an interesting piece in the New York Times also about corporate America getting hooked on open source AI. What does that mean, Keith? Is that bad news for anthropic and open AI? Is that good news for the Chinese? What exactly is open source AI?
Words and timings
Anyway,let'smoveon.Wewillseeonthatone.There'saninterestingpieceintheNewYorkTimesalsoaboutcorporateAmericagettinghookedonopensourceAI.Whatdoesthatmean,Keith?IsthatbadnewsforanthropicandopenAI?IsthatgoodnewsfortheChinese?WhatexactlyisopensourceAI?
Keith Teare
Is that Facebook's AI? It has been in the past. And they are saying they're going to release this new model. But it's also the Chinese model. It's mainly GLM 5.3, which is a Chinese model. It's a bigger thing. Hugging Face was acquired by Nvidia yesterday for $13 billion. And Hugging Face is the repository of open source AI models as well as closed source ones. So if you think about... Open Source is becoming mainstream. NVIDIA certainly wants everyone to use it because Open Source requires NVIDIA GPUs plugged into computers to run. And Open Source just means that instead of... I'll give you an example. Apple just released the new Mac Studio, which is $18,000 for the most fully specced one. And you can run AI on it. And so instead of paying $200 a month, you can pay $18,000 upfront and nothing per month. If you're buying NVIDIA GPUs, a single GPU will cost you more than $18,000 at the higher end like the RTX 6000 Pro. And It's really about distributing AI capability out to the edge of the network, inside companies or schools or whatever, and paying for the hardware and the electricity to run them and not paying token fees to OpenAI and Anthropik.
Words and timings
IsthatFacebook'sAI?Ithasbeeninthepast.Andtheyaresayingthey'regoingtoreleasethisnewmodel.Butit'salsotheChinesemodel.It'smainlyGLM5.3,whichisaChinesemodel.It'sabiggerthing.HuggingFacewasacquiredbyNvidiayesterdayfor$13billion.AndHuggingFaceistherepositoryofopensourceAImodelsaswellasclosedsourceones.Soifyouthinkabout...OpenSourceisbecomingmainstream.NVIDIAcertainlywantseveryonetouseitbecauseOpenSourcerequiresNVIDIAGPUspluggedintocomputerstorun.AndOpenSourcejustmeansthatinsteadof...I'llgiveyouanexample.ApplejustreleasedthenewMacStudio,whichis$18,000forthemostfullyspeccedone.AndyoucanrunAIonit.Andsoinsteadofpaying$200amonth,youcanpay$18,000upfrontandnothingpermonth.Ifyou'rebuyingNVIDIAGPUs,asingleGPUwillcostyoumorethan$18,000atthehigherendliketheRTX6000Pro.AndIt'sreallyaboutdistributingAIcapabilityouttotheedgeofthenetwork,insidecompaniesorschoolsorwhatever,andpayingforthehardwareandtheelectricitytorunthemandnotpayingtokenfeestoOpenAIandAnthropik.
Andrew
So what's NVIDIA's position in all this? There was a good piece in The Economist about NVIDIA, and I'm quoting The Economist here, is becoming the central bank of AI. Does NVIDIA win, whether it's open source or open AI or Anthropic, which aren't open source, which are closed garden AI models?
Words and timings
Sowhat'sNVIDIA'spositioninallthis?TherewasagoodpieceinTheEconomistaboutNVIDIA,andI'mquotingTheEconomisthere,isbecomingthecentralbankofAI.DoesNVIDIAwin,whetherit'sopensourceoropenAIorAnthropic,whicharen'topensource,whichareclosedgardenAImodels?
Keith Teare
Yeah, well, NVIDIA wins with both. NVIDIA sells hardware and some software, but mainly hardware. It wants everyone to use AI, and in order to use AI, it wants everyone to buy its hardware. So it wins. The greater the scale and the faster the growth, the more NVIDIA wins. So anything they do is designed to accelerate and proliferate AI use.
Words and timings
Yeah,well,NVIDIAwinswithboth.NVIDIAsellshardwareandsomesoftware,butmainlyhardware.ItwantseveryonetouseAI,andinordertouseAI,itwantseveryonetobuyitshardware.Soitwins.Thegreaterthescaleandthefasterthegrowth,themoreNVIDIAwins.SoanythingtheydoisdesignedtoaccelerateandproliferateAIuse.
Andrew
And I think the NVIDIA case is an interesting one, going back to your issue of trust. I'm guessing, we don't have any empirical evidence here, but I'm guessing of all these companies, Nvidia is probably the one that people trust the most. Is that fair?
Words and timings
AndIthinktheNVIDIAcaseisaninterestingone,goingbacktoyourissueoftrust.I'mguessing,wedon'thaveanyempiricalevidencehere,butI'mguessingofallthesecompanies,Nvidiaisprobablytheonethatpeopletrustthemost.Isthatfair?
Keith Teare
Which is ironic, right? Because they are the, you know, if there is a parent of AI, it's Nvidia.
Words and timings
Whichisironic,right?Becausetheyarethe,youknow,ifthereisaparentofAI,it'sNvidia.
Andrew
Well, they're the arm supplier. I mean, they... Yeah. But then do people trust them because they don't have, as long as people use AI, they don't really have an agenda. They're not for or against open source. They're not for or against open AI or anthropic.
Words and timings
Well,they'rethearmsupplier.Imean,they...Yeah.Butthendopeopletrustthembecausetheydon'thave,aslongaspeopleuseAI,theydon'treallyhaveanagenda.They'renotfororagainstopensource.They'renotfororagainstopenAIoranthropic.
Keith Teare
Yeah, I don't think anyone actually is for or against any of those things. I mean, I'm not. I'm for, even though I have a lot.
Words and timings
Yeah,Idon'tthinkanyoneactuallyisfororagainstanyofthosethings.Imean,I'mnot.I'mfor,eventhoughIhavealot.
Andrew
Well, Anthropics is for Anthropic. OpenAI is for OpenAI. I mean, these companies have their own corporate self-interest. But from NVIDIA's point of view, as long as we use AI, NVIDIA wins. Who's their most direct competition? Google? AMD. And Google has also entered this space, too.
Words and timings
Well,AnthropicsisforAnthropic.OpenAIisforOpenAI.Imean,thesecompanieshavetheirowncorporateself-interest.ButfromNVIDIA'spointofview,aslongasweuseAI,NVIDIAwins.Who'stheirmostdirectcompetition?Google?AMD.AndGooglehasalsoenteredthisspace,too.
Keith Teare
Google has, but it's very much a small player. Cerebrus is probably... More interesting. They just went public. They do these big wafer-sized chips, and their chips are much faster than NVIDIA's GPUs, and therefore the token price is much cheaper.
Words and timings
Googlehas,butit'sverymuchasmallplayer.Cerebrusisprobably...Moreinteresting.Theyjustwentpublic.Theydothesebigwafer-sizedchips,andtheirchipsaremuchfasterthanNVIDIA'sGPUs,andthereforethetokenpriceismuchcheaper.
Andrew
But should we trust NVIDIA then? I mean, coming back, you talk about trust. I mean, when consumers look at this They're uncomfortable, even if they rely on AI. If we're not going to have government involvement, government regulation, should some of the trust come from Nvidia, some of the licenses or some of the authority?
Words and timings
ButshouldwetrustNVIDIAthen?Imean,comingback,youtalkabouttrust.Imean,whenconsumerslookatthisThey'reuncomfortable,eveniftheyrelyonAI.Ifwe'renotgoingtohavegovernmentinvolvement,governmentregulation,shouldsomeofthetrustcomefromNvidia,someofthelicensesorsomeoftheauthority?
Keith Teare
Well, firstly, Nvidia wouldn't set themselves up to play that role anyway, because that would put friction in the way of their sales. Remember, we live in a capitalist society where everything is about profits and money. Nvidia is the most capitalist of all of them. And he's making the most money of all of them from selling the arms, as you say. So Nvidia is definitely not gonna become a governance institution. Neither will any of them. I mean, there'll only be governance if the industry starts misbehaving in a way that implies risk, which so far has not happened in my view.
Words and timings
Well,firstly,Nvidiawouldn'tsetthemselvesuptoplaythatroleanyway,becausethatwouldputfrictioninthewayoftheirsales.Remember,weliveinacapitalistsocietywhereeverythingisaboutprofitsandmoney.Nvidiaisthemostcapitalistofallofthem.Andhe'smakingthemostmoneyofallofthemfromsellingthearms,asyousay.SoNvidiaisdefinitelynotgonnabecomeagovernanceinstitution.Neitherwillanyofthem.Imean,there'llonlybegovernanceiftheindustrystartsmisbehavinginawaythatimpliesrisk,whichsofarhasnothappenedinmyview.
Andrew
Well, that's maybe because they're withholding some of the models that you don't agree with. So maybe it is self-regulating in a sense.
Words and timings
Well,that'smaybebecausethey'rewithholdingsomeofthemodelsthatyoudon'tagreewith.Somaybeitisself-regulatinginasense.
Keith Teare
Meanwhile, there was an interesting piece also in The Times asking
Words and timings
Meanwhile,therewasaninterestingpiecealsoinTheTimesasking
Andrew
which investors will get rich from Anthropix IPO. And they make the point that whereas in previous booms, VCs have bet on one company or another. But in this one, companies like Sequoia have invested in both Anthropic and OpenAI. Is that true? And does that tell us about the risk involved in investment?
Words and timings
whichinvestorswillgetrichfromAnthropixIPO.Andtheymakethepointthatwhereasinpreviousbooms,VCshavebetononecompanyoranother.Butinthisone,companieslikeSequoiahaveinvestedinbothAnthropicandOpenAI.Isthattrue?Anddoesthattellusabouttheriskinvolvedininvestment?
Keith Teare
It is true. There was a spat this week where Index Ventures was going to lead a round of a competitor of a company it had already invested in. And the company had already invested in Objective and Index ended up not leading that round. So there was a bit of a fight. The reason it's true is there's a huge concentration of money into a small number of companies. And if you were to count the number of companies that are going to return venture capital funds, it's probably less than 50 companies in total. And even there, there would be a wide skew where OpenAI and Anthropic Represent more than half of the total likely value. And so if you're not in one or both of them, you're probably not a good venture capitalist measured by returns.
Words and timings
Itistrue.TherewasaspatthisweekwhereIndexVentureswasgoingtoleadaroundofacompetitorofacompanyithadalreadyinvestedin.AndthecompanyhadalreadyinvestedinObjectiveandIndexendedupnotleadingthatround.Sotherewasabitofafight.Thereasonit'strueisthere'sahugeconcentrationofmoneyintoasmallnumberofcompanies.Andifyouweretocountthenumberofcompaniesthataregoingtoreturnventurecapitalfunds,it'sprobablylessthan50companiesintotal.Andeventhere,therewouldbeawideskewwhereOpenAIandAnthropicRepresentmorethanhalfofthetotallikelyvalue.Andsoifyou'renotinoneorbothofthem,you'reprobablynotagoodventurecapitalistmeasuredbyreturns.
Andrew
So you're just betting on a sector. I mean, they could still lose if AI generally turned out to be a bust for one reason or another.
Words and timings
Soyou'rejustbettingonasector.Imean,theycouldstillloseifAIgenerallyturnedouttobeabustforonereasonoranother.
Keith Teare
Yeah, but it's a highly concentrated sector. If the sector had 200 companies, that might work. But in terms of dollars spent, 75% of all dollars invested in VC funds in the last month went to Andreessen Horowitz, 75%. So there's this huge concentration. So if you're playing the VC game, you need to be in the concentrated winners. There are other strategies. I published something yesterday on the stateofventure.com platform. Called Concentration and Diversification that addresses this at more length. But we're highly concentrated. Therefore, risk is highly concentrated. Therefore, money, and it's a pyramid of money. It starts with the VCs, but it goes down to the pension companies. So it's somebody's mom and dad's money. It's heavily betting that Anthropic and OpenAI are going to return large amounts of wealth.
Words and timings
Yeah,butit'sahighlyconcentratedsector.Ifthesectorhad200companies,thatmightwork.Butintermsofdollarsspent,75%ofalldollarsinvestedinVCfundsinthelastmonthwenttoAndreessenHorowitz,75%.Sothere'sthishugeconcentration.Soifyou'replayingtheVCgame,youneedtobeintheconcentratedwinners.Thereareotherstrategies.Ipublishedsomethingyesterdayonthestateofventure.complatform.CalledConcentrationandDiversificationthataddressesthisatmorelength.Butwe'rehighlyconcentrated.Therefore,riskishighlyconcentrated.Therefore,money,andit'sapyramidofmoney.ItstartswiththeVCs,butitgoesdowntothepensioncompanies.Soit'ssomebody'smomanddad'smoney.It'sheavilybettingthatAnthropicandOpenAIaregoingtoreturnlargeamountsofwealth.
Andrew
So in a way, its architecture, its pyramidal architecture is rather like the architecture in the chip business, where NVIDIA is the central bank of AI, just as a handful, Andreessen Horowitz, Sequoia, one or two other huge VCs are, I don't know, providing the liquidity to this central bank. Is that one way of thinking of it?
Words and timings
Soinaway,itsarchitecture,itspyramidalarchitectureisratherlikethearchitectureinthechipbusiness,whereNVIDIAisthecentralbankofAI,justasahandful,AndreessenHorowitz,Sequoia,oneortwootherhugeVCsare,Idon'tknow,providingtheliquiditytothiscentralbank.Isthatonewayofthinkingofit?
Keith Teare
The liquidity actually is going to come from retail investors like SpaceX did. The funding early comes from the VCs who are not liquid. They only get liquid when the company goes public or is sold like Hugging Face was. And so liquidity happens late most of the time. So this is really more about The nature of money in capitalism is a little bit like water in a flood. Money goes the fastest route possible to the place it wants to get. And the place it wants to get today is a handful of names. I run SignalRank, and for the last two years, we have 64 investments. And for the last two years, not one of them appeared in the top 20 list of shares that Buyers were trying to buy in secondary markets, which is pre-IPO. Now five of our companies are in the top 20 list of shares that people want to buy. And so as names become well known, money is attracted to them. More money goes there than anywhere else.
Words and timings
TheliquidityactuallyisgoingtocomefromretailinvestorslikeSpaceXdid.ThefundingearlycomesfromtheVCswhoarenotliquid.TheyonlygetliquidwhenthecompanygoespublicorissoldlikeHuggingFacewas.Andsoliquidityhappenslatemostofthetime.SothisisreallymoreaboutThenatureofmoneyincapitalismisalittlebitlikewaterinaflood.Moneygoesthefastestroutepossibletotheplaceitwantstoget.Andtheplaceitwantstogettodayisahandfulofnames.IrunSignalRank,andforthelasttwoyears,wehave64investments.Andforthelasttwoyears,notoneofthemappearedinthetop20listofsharesthatBuyersweretryingtobuyinsecondarymarkets,whichispre-IPO.Nowfiveofourcompaniesareinthetop20listofsharesthatpeoplewanttobuy.Andsoasnamesbecomewellknown,moneyisattractedtothem.Moremoneygoestherethananywhereelse.
Andrew
So what can go, okay, so I take your point. What can go wrong here? What worries you?
Words and timings
Sowhatcango,okay,soItakeyourpoint.Whatcangowronghere?Whatworriesyou?
Keith Teare
I think a lot can go wrong. I mean, the biggest thing that goes wrong is that people buying secondary shares late in the life of these companies prior to an IPO almost always lose money because the IPO right sizes the valuations. And that's what happened with SpaceX. Briefly, but it's come back now. But it's happened with almost every other IPO. In fact, SpaceX is one of the winning ones. But look at Figma and you'll see the opposite. Well, why should we care about that?
Words and timings
Ithinkalotcangowrong.Imean,thebiggestthingthatgoeswrongisthatpeoplebuyingsecondaryshareslateinthelifeofthesecompaniespriortoanIPOalmostalwayslosemoneybecausetheIPOrightsizesthevaluations.Andthat'swhathappenedwithSpaceX.Briefly,butit'scomebacknow.Butit'shappenedwithalmosteveryotherIPO.Infact,SpaceXisoneofthewinningones.ButlookatFigmaandyou'llseetheopposite.Well,whyshouldwecareaboutthat?
Andrew
I mean, it's bad if you may be stupid enough to do that. But otherwise, I mean, that's not a disaster, is it?
Words and timings
Imean,it'sbadifyoumaybestupidenoughtodothat.Butotherwise,Imean,that'snotadisaster,isit?
Keith Teare
It's only a disaster for the people losing the money. And it's in the nature of the system we live in that that's going to happen. So I'm not saying I care about it. But it's more extreme now than it's ever been due to this concentration into a small number of names.
Words and timings
It'sonlyadisasterforthepeoplelosingthemoney.Andit'sinthenatureofthesystemweliveinthatthat'sgoingtohappen.SoI'mnotsayingIcareaboutit.Butit'smoreextremenowthanit'severbeenduetothisconcentrationintoasmallnumberofnames.
Andrew
So what else can go wrong apart from that?
Words and timings
Sowhatelsecangowrongapartfromthat?
Keith Teare
I think governments could try to regulate. And if they did that, it would slow everything down and therefore the investments made in the infrastructure wouldn't return the money as fast as was previously modeled. And then the whole deck of cards crumbles.
Words and timings
Ithinkgovernmentscouldtrytoregulate.Andiftheydidthat,itwouldsloweverythingdownandthereforetheinvestmentsmadeintheinfrastructurewouldn'treturnthemoneyasfastaswaspreviouslymodeled.Andthenthewholedeckofcardscrumbles.
Andrew
So it is a deck of cards, not a substantial building.
Words and timings
Soitisadeckofcards,notasubstantialbuilding.
Keith Teare
A deck of cards can be a good thing or a bad thing. It depends whether whether the wind blows.
Words and timings
Adeckofcardscanbeagoodthingorabadthing.Itdependswhetherwhetherthewindblows.
Andrew
I mean, one of the things that strikes me Is that it's so different from the dot-com boom, which was so empty. The Washington Post had a piece about how people are using AI. A lot of people are using it in our age of anxiety and loneliness to get through their life. I mean, AI has become more reliable, more trusted than other humans. So we're trusting AI. We're trusting our agents when we talk to them, and we, I mean, most humans. So in that sense, trust exists. So this is a real development. There's nothing empty. I mean, you talked about a house of cards, maybe in financial terms, but not in the way which people are using this technology.
Words and timings
Imean,oneofthethingsthatstrikesmeIsthatit'ssodifferentfromthedot-comboom,whichwassoempty.TheWashingtonPosthadapieceabouthowpeopleareusingAI.Alotofpeopleareusingitinourageofanxietyandlonelinesstogetthroughtheirlife.Imean,AIhasbecomemorereliable,moretrustedthanotherhumans.Sowe'retrustingAI.We'retrustingouragentswhenwetalktothem,andwe,Imean,mosthumans.Sointhatsense,trustexists.Sothisisarealdevelopment.There'snothingempty.Imean,youtalkedaboutahouseofcards,maybeinfinancialterms,butnotinthewaywhichpeopleareusingthistechnology.
Keith Teare
Yeah, I mean, that's coming right back to the starting point, which is that trust comes from use. And I will say in the early days, when we first started talking about this, which was more than two years ago, there were so many horror stories from users. There's hardly any these days. Users are, generally speaking, getting a good experience using AI, including for companionship, for lonely people. I'm sure that's happening a lot. I use it for health, by the way. Oh, you do? In what way? So if you go to ChatGPT these days, it lets you connect your doctor's practice and all the records, and it will scan them and give you an appraisal of your health, heart, blood, everything. And when something happens and you ask a question, it has the context to be able to answer. I do that a lot. If you were on the side of worrying about health, you can provoke it to entertain the possibility of all kinds of things going on with your body. But ultimately, it comes back to some sane core that's very closely aligned with what your doctor thinks. It's kind of interesting to watch. But it is a good sounding board.
Words and timings
Yeah,Imean,that'scomingrightbacktothestartingpoint,whichisthattrustcomesfromuse.AndIwillsayintheearlydays,whenwefirststartedtalkingaboutthis,whichwasmorethantwoyearsago,thereweresomanyhorrorstoriesfromusers.There'shardlyanythesedays.Usersare,generallyspeaking,gettingagoodexperienceusingAI,includingforcompanionship,forlonelypeople.I'msurethat'shappeningalot.Iuseitforhealth,bytheway.Oh,youdo?Inwhatway?SoifyougotoChatGPTthesedays,itletsyouconnectyourdoctor'spracticeandalltherecords,anditwillscanthemandgiveyouanappraisalofyourhealth,heart,blood,everything.Andwhensomethinghappensandyouaskaquestion,ithasthecontexttobeabletoanswer.Idothatalot.Ifyouwereonthesideofworryingabouthealth,youcanprovokeittoentertainthepossibilityofallkindsofthingsgoingonwithyourbody.Butultimately,itcomesbacktosomesanecorethat'sverycloselyalignedwithwhatyourdoctorthinks.It'skindofinterestingtowatch.Butitisagoodsoundingboard.
Andrew
So what you're saying, Keith, is everything's going to turn out well as long as Bernie Sanders and his crowd keep their hands off regulating, trying to regulate AI, superintelligence, whatever they want to call it.
Words and timings
Sowhatyou'resaying,Keith,iseverything'sgoingtoturnoutwellaslongasBernieSandersandhiscrowdkeeptheirhandsoffregulating,tryingtoregulateAI,superintelligence,whatevertheywanttocallit.
Keith Teare
I feel sorry for Bernie because I think Bernie's a populist and he thinks he has a cause. But in fact, what you just said about people using it, And there is actually trust. I think he's closer to the truth than the data center spans. And therefore, I think there is no populist cause. And I think he's not going to get any votes through it.
Words and timings
IfeelsorryforBerniebecauseIthinkBernie'sapopulistandhethinkshehasacause.Butinfact,whatyoujustsaidaboutpeopleusingit,Andthereisactuallytrust.Ithinkhe'sclosertothetruththanthedatacenterspans.Andtherefore,Ithinkthereisnopopulistcause.AndIthinkhe'snotgoingtogetanyvotesthroughit.
Andrew
So you think that this whole data center issue is invented by the media or maybe by populist politicians
Words and timings
Soyouthinkthatthiswholedatacenterissueisinventedbythemediaormaybebypopulistpoliticians
Keith Teare
and then the media.
Words and timings
andthenthemedia.
Andrew
So you don't think in the midterms and certainly in 2028, it's going to be a big issue.
Words and timings
Soyoudon'tthinkinthemidtermsandcertainlyin2028,it'sgoingtobeabigissue.
Keith Teare
It's not a winning issue. I think there's much better winning issues than data centers. I mean, if it was me, I'd be focused on rational government, wars, jobs, wages, post abundance, ways to think about how to help people who don't have jobs, blah, blah.
Words and timings
It'snotawinningissue.Ithinkthere'smuchbetterwinningissuesthandatacenters.Imean,ifitwasme,I'dbefocusedonrationalgovernment,wars,jobs,wages,postabundance,waystothinkabouthowtohelppeoplewhodon'thavejobs,blah,blah.
Andrew
Well, That Was The Week, the first half week of September, last half week of August. We'll be back to our regular scheduling next week. Keith says, don't trust the trust scare. He may be right, although I think he perhaps simplifies the hugging case incident, but we will return to that in future issues.
Words and timings
Well,ThatWasTheWeek,thefirsthalfweekofSeptember,lasthalfweekofAugust.We'llbebacktoourregularschedulingnextweek.Keithsays,don'ttrustthetrustscare.Hemayberight,althoughIthinkheperhapssimplifiesthehuggingcaseincident,butwewillreturntothatinfutureissues.
Andrew Keen
Keep well, Keith. Ethan, we'll talk next week. I'm just going to go and check on my swarms.
Words and timings
Keepwell,Keith.Ethan,we'lltalknextweek.I'mjustgoingtogoandcheckonmyswarms.