Speaker 2
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Words and timings
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Adulting
Apr 25, 2026 ยท 2026 #14. Read the transcript grouped by speaker, inspect word-level timecodes, and optionally turn subtitles on for direct video playback
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Speaker 3
It's Saturday, April the 25th, 2026, the last Saturday in April. And this might be the week when finally the AI business grew up. That at least is according to Keith Teer, the publisher of That Was The Week newsletter. His editorial this week is entitled, very tersely, Adulting. Keith, is this the week that... Sam and Dario and everybody else finally grew up and became Menches?
Words and timings
It'sSaturday,Aprilthe25th,2026,thelastSaturdayinApril.AndthismightbetheweekwhenfinallytheAIbusinessgrewup.ThatatleastisaccordingtoKeithTeer,thepublisherofThatWasTheWeeknewsletter.Hiseditorialthisweekisentitled,verytersely,Adulting.Keith,isthistheweekthat...SamandDarioandeverybodyelsefinallygrewupandbecameMenches?
Speaker 1
Well, for anyone paying attention, it was a dramatically high energy week from both Anthropic and OpenAI in very different ways. OpenAI went on a PR binge that kicked off with Greg Brockman, who is the co-founder, and Sam Altman together being interviewed. Brockman, it turns out, is an extremely good, clear-thinking representative for OpenAI.
Words and timings
Well,foranyonepayingattention,itwasadramaticallyhighenergyweekfrombothAnthropicandOpenAIinverydifferentways.OpenAIwentonaPRbingethatkickedoffwithGregBrockman,whoistheco-founder,andSamAltmantogetherbeinginterviewed.Brockman,itturnsout,isanextremelygood,clear-thinkingrepresentativeforOpenAI.
Speaker 3
And just to be clear, this was on the Core Memory podcast. Not as good as ours, of course, although we didn't get Sam or Dario or Brockman on our show.
Words and timings
Andjusttobeclear,thiswasontheCoreMemorypodcast.Notasgoodasours,ofcourse,althoughwedidn'tgetSamorDarioorBrockmanonourshow.
Speaker 1
Exactly, not as good as ours. But actually, Brockman, that was his first of probably five appearances during the week on various podcasts. This was the longest and most in depth. And the two of them interacted a lot. And you really got an insight into a company that's really thinking things through, being quite deliberate, very long term thinking, with no tendency to to feed any of the memes that they're arrogant or, you know, self-obsessed. It was very good for them.
Words and timings
Exactly,notasgoodasours.Butactually,Brockman,thatwashisfirstofprobablyfiveappearancesduringtheweekonvariouspodcasts.Thiswasthelongestandmostindepth.Andthetwooftheminteractedalot.Andyoureallygotaninsightintoacompanythat'sreallythinkingthingsthrough,beingquitedeliberate,verylongtermthinking,withnotendencytotofeedanyofthememesthatthey'rearrogantor,youknow,self-obsessed.Itwasverygoodforthem.
Speaker 3
I mean, does that suggest, Keith, I don't want to pee on your parade, so to speak, but they're getting a lot of grief from their investors. I know there have been rumors that the investors don't think that The valuation now is justified. Are they getting a lot of pushback from people saying, you've got to grow up, you've got to be responsible?
Words and timings
Imean,doesthatsuggest,Keith,Idon'twanttopeeonyourparade,sotospeak,butthey'regettingalotofgrieffromtheirinvestors.Iknowtherehavebeenrumorsthattheinvestorsdon'tthinkthatThevaluationnowisjustified.Aretheygettingalotofpushbackfrompeoplesaying,you'vegottogrowup,you'vegottoberesponsible?
Speaker 1
Investors don't tend to do that. They more lean in to become part of strategy. It has the same effect. That is to say, an increase of energy in areas of weakness. I think good investors do that. And there's a good investor, so I'm sure there is some of that happening.
Words and timings
Investorsdon'ttendtodothat.Theymoreleanintobecomepartofstrategy.Ithasthesameeffect.Thatistosay,anincreaseofenergyinareasofweakness.Ithinkgoodinvestorsdothat.Andthere'sagoodinvestor,soI'msurethereissomeofthathappening.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, they've got the top investors in the world. So what is Altman and Brockman, what are they saying that's reflected of the fact that they're now, you claim at least this week, they've finally reached adult status? It's taken a while, but they're there.
Words and timings
Yeah,Imean,they'vegotthetopinvestorsintheworld.SowhatisAltmanandBrockman,whataretheysayingthat'sreflectedofthefactthatthey'renow,youclaimatleastthisweek,they'vefinallyreachedadultstatus?It'stakenawhile,butthey'rethere.
Speaker 1
They're saying a lot. They launched two products. One is Imaging 2.0. The other is ChatGPT 5.5. Both are not just good. I mean, they're outstanding. And, you know, you want to be using them because they're the best at what they do. They also change their codec.
Words and timings
They'resayingalot.Theylaunchedtwoproducts.OneisImaging2.0.TheotherisChatGPT5.5.Botharenotjustgood.Imean,they'reoutstanding.And,youknow,youwanttobeusingthembecausethey'rethebestatwhattheydo.Theyalsochangetheircodec.
Speaker 3
When you say you want to be using them, who's the you? Is this programmers? Is this you and I?
Words and timings
Whenyousayyouwanttobeusingthem,who'stheyou?Isthisprogrammers?IsthisyouandI?
Speaker 1
Oh, you and I as well. These things aren't just for coding. They're just...
Words and timings
Oh,youandIaswell.Thesethingsaren'tjustforcoding.They'rejust...
Speaker 3
But every week, somebody it's, you know, we've talked about this before, it's like wacky races, every week, there's a new leader. So next week, probably, Anthropic will come up with something equivalent.
Words and timings
Buteveryweek,somebodyit's,youknow,we'vetalkedaboutthisbefore,it'slikewackyraces,everyweek,there'sanewleader.Sonextweek,probably,Anthropicwillcomeupwithsomethingequivalent.
Speaker 1
Well, I think you have to use it to appreciate the qualitative change. Whether someone's a leader or not, I honestly don't really care. I do care how good the output is, and how fast it is and how cheap it is. So they achieved a few things. They're using less tokens for much better output. Therefore, it's more scalable. That means the free version is quite functional. They've changed codecs from a programmer's app into the central app. And the center of gravity has now moved from the model to the user interface, which is a huge move. And Codex now should be everyone's starting point. You shouldn't be using ChatGPT, the app, anymore, for any purpose. You should be using Codex. It's a better interface, doing more things, and it has access to all the models. So they've shifted their company to the next stage qualitatively. It really is real.
Words and timings
Well,Ithinkyouhavetouseittoappreciatethequalitativechange.Whethersomeone'saleaderornot,Ihonestlydon'treallycare.Idocarehowgoodtheoutputis,andhowfastitisandhowcheapitis.Sotheyachievedafewthings.They'reusinglesstokensformuchbetteroutput.Therefore,it'smorescalable.Thatmeansthefreeversionisquitefunctional.They'vechangedcodecsfromaprogrammer'sappintothecentralapp.Andthecenterofgravityhasnowmovedfromthemodeltotheuserinterface,whichisahugemove.AndCodexnowshouldbeeveryone'sstartingpoint.Youshouldn'tbeusingChatGPT,theapp,anymore,foranypurpose.YoushouldbeusingCodex.It'sabetterinterface,doingmorethings,andithasaccesstoallthemodels.Sothey'veshiftedtheircompanytothenextstagequalitatively.Itreallyisreal.
Speaker 3
You said that the free model now is functional. That might make some investors a little nervous. How are they going to make money if the free model is functional?
Words and timings
Yousaidthatthefreemodelnowisfunctional.Thatmightmakesomeinvestorsalittlenervous.Howaretheygoingtomakemoneyifthefreemodelisfunctional?
Speaker 1
Well, it's called freemium. It's the proven model of the internet is you've got to get people using it for free. And the heaviest users will pay for more access or improved quality. And that seems to be working for them. Look, there's nothing really bad to say about it. One can be skeptical always. But I think skepticism isn't really earned this week. It's more praise.
Words and timings
Well,it'scalledfreemium.It'stheprovenmodeloftheinternetisyou'vegottogetpeopleusingitforfree.Andtheheaviestuserswillpayformoreaccessorimprovedquality.Andthatseemstobeworkingforthem.Look,there'snothingreallybadtosayaboutit.Onecanbeskepticalalways.ButIthinkskepticismisn'treallyearnedthisweek.It'smorepraise.
Speaker 3
Although there is some skepticism, not of, at least in your newsletter, not of Brockman and Altman, but of Amadai. Jan Lecun, another of the very influential founders of the AI revolution, suggests that Dario is wrong. He knows absolutely nothing about the effects of technological revolutions on the labor market. What's Dario been up to this week? How's he? If Sam has become an adult overnight or over a week, what's Dario been up to? And you tend to be much more critical, in my view at least, of Dario than you are of Sam. What's Dario done good this week?
Words and timings
Althoughthereissomeskepticism,notof,atleastinyournewsletter,notofBrockmanandAltman,butofAmadai.JanLecun,anotheroftheveryinfluentialfoundersoftheAIrevolution,suggeststhatDarioiswrong.Heknowsabsolutelynothingabouttheeffectsoftechnologicalrevolutionsonthelabormarket.What'sDariobeenuptothisweek?How'she?IfSamhasbecomeanadultovernightoroveraweek,what'sDariobeenupto?Andyoutendtobemuchmorecritical,inmyviewatleast,ofDariothanyouareofSam.What'sDariodonegoodthisweek?
Speaker 1
Yeah, if I'd have been writing the newsletter on Thursday, I would have had a very different view of Anthropic because the first four days of the week for them were awful. A few things happened. The first thing that happened is they released the 0.7 version of Opus, 4.7, and the performance massively deteriorated from 4.6, and everyone was complaining about its hallucinations. We're back. The service was throttled. You got timeouts. So, you know, basically their infrastructure was creaking, if you will, with the usage. And, you know, it was a pretty bad week. Everything was going on.
Words and timings
Yeah,ifI'dhavebeenwritingthenewsletteronThursday,IwouldhavehadaverydifferentviewofAnthropicbecausethefirstfourdaysoftheweekforthemwereawful.Afewthingshappened.Thefirstthingthathappenedistheyreleasedthe0.7versionofOpus,4.7,andtheperformancemassivelydeterioratedfrom4.6,andeveryonewascomplainingaboutitshallucinations.We'reback.Theservicewasthrottled.Yougottimeouts.So,youknow,basicallytheirinfrastructurewascreaking,ifyouwill,withtheusage.And,youknow,itwasaprettybadweek.Everythingwasgoingon.
Speaker 3
We've said this before, is your fellow Yorkshireman, Harold Wilson famously said, a week's a long time in politics, and it's certainly a long time in tech. What changed then? So the first four days of the week weren't great for Dario and Anthropik. And then what changed?
Words and timings
We'vesaidthisbefore,isyourfellowYorkshireman,HaroldWilsonfamouslysaid,aweek'salongtimeinpolitics,andit'scertainlyalongtimeintech.Whatchangedthen?Sothefirstfourdaysoftheweekweren'tgreatforDarioandAnthropik.Andthenwhatchanged?
Speaker 1
Well, you know, what changed is in response, they removed some of the features from their paid product, features that people care about. And they got such a backlash, they put it back in within 24 hours. And this was Dario, what I call his, the adolescent teenager being reactive. But yesterday it was announced that Google is going to invest up to $40 billion for infrastructure and that Amazon is also going to invest in an initial $5 billion. Google's initial is $10. So $15 billion coming in initially from a gross of over $50 billion to spend on infrastructure, which they have to do because their service can't scale without it.
Words and timings
Well,youknow,whatchangedisinresponse,theyremovedsomeofthefeaturesfromtheirpaidproduct,featuresthatpeoplecareabout.Andtheygotsuchabacklash,theyputitbackinwithin24hours.AndthiswasDario,whatIcallhis,theadolescentteenagerbeingreactive.ButyesterdayitwasannouncedthatGoogleisgoingtoinvestupto$40billionforinfrastructureandthatAmazonisalsogoingtoinvestinaninitial$5billion.Google'sinitialis$10.So$15billioncomingininitiallyfromagrossofover$50billiontospendoninfrastructure,whichtheyhavetodobecausetheirservicecan'tscalewithoutit.
Speaker 3
So when you say... Infrastructure, Keith, not everyone is as familiar with these terms and what they mean. Does that require them to build data centers? Where does the money and infrastructure, where does it go?
Words and timings
Sowhenyousay...Infrastructure,Keith,noteveryoneisasfamiliarwiththesetermsandwhattheymean.Doesthatrequirethemtobuilddatacenters?Wheredoesthemoneyandinfrastructure,wheredoesitgo?
Speaker 1
Well, they don't have to buy them. They can lease them. OpenAI don't own data centers. They lease them and they charge them out at a profit margin above what they pay for the lease. Anthropic can do the same. And Google, as the supplier of TPUs, which is the NVIDIA competitor chip, has data centers with TPUs in. And so Anthropic most likely is going to spend a lot of money on both Amazon and Google leasing data center capacity using the chips that both of those companies manufacture in competition with NVIDIA. So it feels as if Anthropic, this is probably a bad decision long term.
Words and timings
Well,theydon'thavetobuythem.Theycanleasethem.OpenAIdon'towndatacenters.Theyleasethemandtheychargethemoutataprofitmarginabovewhattheypayforthelease.Anthropiccandothesame.AndGoogle,asthesupplierofTPUs,whichistheNVIDIAcompetitorchip,hasdatacenterswithTPUsin.AndsoAnthropicmostlikelyisgoingtospendalotofmoneyonbothAmazonandGoogleleasingdatacentercapacityusingthechipsthatbothofthosecompaniesmanufactureincompetitionwithNVIDIA.SoitfeelsasifAnthropic,thisisprobablyabaddecisionlongterm.
Speaker 3
For who? For Anthropic or for Google and Amazon?
Words and timings
Forwho?ForAnthropicorforGoogleandAmazon?
Speaker 1
It's great for Google and Amazon. For Anthropic, they're making a bet they don't need to be an NVIDIA customer.
Words and timings
It'sgreatforGoogleandAmazon.ForAnthropic,they'remakingabettheydon'tneedtobeanNVIDIAcustomer.
Speaker 3
So we're seeing two worlds, two separate axes emerging, the NVIDIA OpenAI axis and the Google-Amazon Anthropic axis. Is that fair?
Words and timings
Sowe'reseeingtwoworlds,twoseparateaxesemerging,theNVIDIAOpenAIaxisandtheGoogle-AmazonAnthropicaxis.Isthatfair?
Speaker 1
It's directionally fair, although there is a huge overlap. I mean, all the companies use everything, so it isn't binary, it isn't strict, but directionally, yes, what you said is correct.
Words and timings
It'sdirectionallyfair,althoughthereisahugeoverlap.Imean,allthecompaniesuseeverything,soitisn'tbinary,itisn'tstrict,butdirectionally,yes,whatyousaidiscorrect.
Speaker 3
Keith, it's been a good week for Wall Street, unusually good week, especially given what's happening in the Middle East. Some people are still scratching their heads. Is this deal between Antropic and Google and Amazon, is it another example? Or could it be used as an example of this circular economy where nothing's really being produced? Amazon and Google are pouring money into Antropic, who simply really, in the end, just give the money back to Google and Amazon in their data centers.
Words and timings
Keith,it'sbeenagoodweekforWallStreet,unusuallygoodweek,especiallygivenwhat'shappeningintheMiddleEast.Somepeoplearestillscratchingtheirheads.IsthisdealbetweenAntropicandGoogleandAmazon,isitanotherexample?Orcoulditbeusedasanexampleofthiscirculareconomywherenothing'sreallybeingproduced?AmazonandGooglearepouringmoneyintoAntropic,whosimplyreally,intheend,justgivethemoneybacktoGoogleandAmazonintheirdatacenters.
Speaker 1
That would be both wrong and crude.
Words and timings
Thatwouldbebothwrongandcrude.
Speaker 3
Have I ever been wrong or crude, Keith?
Words and timings
HaveIeverbeenwrongorcrude,Keith?
Speaker 1
Let's not go there. But back to the question.
Words and timings
Let'snotgothere.Butbacktothequestion.
Speaker 3
And for people just listening, you have to look at Keith's face to understand that what he was thinking was I'm always wrong and crude, but go on.
Words and timings
Andforpeoplejustlistening,youhavetolookatKeith'sfacetounderstandthatwhathewasthinkingwasI'malwayswrongandcrude,butgoon.
Speaker 1
So the money here, and I talk about all the money, is coming from customers paying for services. Google is certainly fronting upfront costs, but how Google gets paid back isn't with its own money. It gets paid back from customers using Anthropic and paying for it. So it isn't a circular economy, although there are, you know, bilateral deals between buyers and sellers.
Words and timings
Sothemoneyhere,andItalkaboutallthemoney,iscomingfromcustomerspayingforservices.Googleiscertainlyfrontingupfrontcosts,buthowGooglegetspaidbackisn'twithitsownmoney.ItgetspaidbackfromcustomersusingAnthropicandpayingforit.Soitisn'tacirculareconomy,althoughthereare,youknow,bilateraldealsbetweenbuyersandsellers.
Speaker 3
To use a Keith Teer euphemism, bilateral deals as opposed to circular.
Words and timings
TouseaKeithTeereuphemism,bilateraldealsasopposedtocircular.
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, they're not circular because the same money isn't coming back. It just isn't. There's no evidence that that's happening. Google doesn't give you money. In fact, there is no money coming from Google. There is probably an agreement for 10 billion dollars.
Words and timings
Yeah,well,they'renotcircularbecausethesamemoneyisn'tcomingback.Itjustisn't.There'snoevidencethatthat'shappening.Googledoesn'tgiveyoumoney.Infact,thereisnomoneycomingfromGoogle.Thereisprobablyanagreementfor10billiondollars.
Speaker 3
So when Google says they're investing 10, 20, 40 billion, whatever it is, that's not cash, that's services, that's data centers, that's infrastructure.
Words and timings
SowhenGooglesaysthey'reinvesting10,20,40billion,whateveritis,that'snotcash,that'sservices,that'sdatacenters,that'sinfrastructure.
Speaker 1
It's in kind, but it gets paid for in equity. So it's equity being traded for services.
Words and timings
It'sinkind,butitgetspaidforinequity.Soit'sequitybeingtradedforservices.
Speaker 3
And of course, in a way, some people might be scratching their heads and thinking, well, why would Google invest in Anthropic when they already have Gemini?
Words and timings
Andofcourse,inaway,somepeoplemightbescratchingtheirheadsandthinking,well,whywouldGoogleinvestinAnthropicwhentheyalreadyhaveGemini?
Speaker 1
Because Google is a multi-headed Hydra.
Words and timings
BecauseGoogleisamulti-headedHydra.
Speaker 3
All Hydra is a multi-headed, Keith, I think.
Words and timings
AllHydraisamulti-headed,Keith,Ithink.
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. So sorry for the redundancy. But Google is both a player and a vendor.
Words and timings
Yeah,exactly.Sosorryfortheredundancy.ButGoogleisbothaplayerandavendor.
Speaker 3
So it really holds all the cards. It'd be interesting to see. And next week, I think Google are coming out with their numbers. It'd be interesting to see what they are, how much they're investing in infrastructure themselves, and where the revenue is coming from on AI and cloud.
Words and timings
Soitreallyholdsallthecards.It'dbeinterestingtosee.Andnextweek,IthinkGooglearecomingoutwiththeirnumbers.It'dbeinterestingtoseewhattheyare,howmuchthey'reinvestingininfrastructurethemselves,andwheretherevenueiscomingfromonAIandcloud.
Speaker 1
Yeah. But I think it's now beyond doubt that if you add together OpenAI Anthropic, here's the adulting theme. They are now... both committed to spending what is required to deliver a usable service and they are both building huge mountains of revenue off of the back of that which will make them the world's two biggest and fastest growing companies ever yeah and you're
Words and timings
Yeah.ButIthinkit'snowbeyonddoubtthatifyouaddtogetherOpenAIAnthropic,here'stheadultingtheme.Theyarenow...bothcommittedtospendingwhatisrequiredtodeliverausableserviceandtheyarebothbuildinghugemountainsofrevenueoffofthebackofthatwhichwillmakethemtheworld'stwobiggestandfastestgrowingcompanieseveryeahandyou're
Speaker 3
going to push back on this but for months if not years you've been saying there's only one player in this game which is open ai and now are you acknowledging keith that this is a uh a two-man race that anthropic and open ai are side by side here i think it's
Words and timings
goingtopushbackonthisbutformonthsifnotyearsyou'vebeensayingthere'sonlyoneplayerinthisgamewhichisopenaiandnowareyouacknowledgingkeiththatthisisauhatwo-manracethatanthropicandopenaiaresidebysidehereithinkit's
Speaker 1
more like a five plus man race uh but i think open ai is you used to always argue
Words and timings
morelikeafiveplusmanraceuhbutithinkopenaiisyouusedtoalwaysargue
Speaker 3
well open ai is so far ahead no one can catch them up they're going to be a 10 15 trillion dollar company inevitably in the next few years well open ai are clearly
Words and timings
wellopenaiissofaraheadnoonecancatchthemupthey'regoingtobea1015trilliondollarcompanyinevitablyinthenextfewyearswellopenaiareclearly
Speaker 1
ahead um on all measures and that's what i've always said by the way i didn't say they were the only player i just said they're far ahead and i still think they're far ahead and will end up being the biggest company of of the group but that said who are the others grok this week acquired cursor for 60 billion dollars that's the biggest acquisition in the history of acquisitions for private.
Words and timings
aheadumonallmeasuresandthat'swhati'vealwayssaidbythewayididn'tsaytheyweretheonlyplayerijustsaidthey'refaraheadandistillthinkthey'refaraheadandwillendupbeingthebiggestcompanyofofthegroupbutthatsaidwhoaretheothersgrokthisweekacquiredcursorfor60billiondollarsthat'sthebiggestacquisitioninthehistoryofacquisitionsforprivate.
Speaker 3
And just to be clear, Keith, because not everyone's as much of an insider as you, what is Cursor? And why did Grok... Grok is, of course, Musk's AI company. Why would they buy Cursor for 60 billion? I mean, the way we throw around billions of dollars these days, especially on shows like this, it doesn't seem a lot. But 60 billion is an awful lot of money for a startup.
Words and timings
Andjusttobeclear,Keith,becausenoteveryone'sasmuchofaninsiderasyou,whatisCursor?AndwhydidGrok...Grokis,ofcourse,Musk'sAIcompany.WhywouldtheybuyCursorfor60billion?Imean,thewaywethrowaroundbillionsofdollarsthesedays,especiallyonshowslikethis,itdoesn'tseemalot.But60billionisanawfullotofmoneyforastartup.
Speaker 1
It's... Well, the buyer is SpaceX. And SpaceX is...
Words and timings
It's...Well,thebuyerisSpaceX.AndSpaceXis...
Speaker 1
You know, the rumor is it's going to be valued at $2 trillion when it IPOs in June. So you've got to think of $60 billion as a percentage of $2 trillion, and it ends up being a stock deal. So there's no cash involved.
Words and timings
Youknow,therumorisit'sgoingtobevaluedat$2trillionwhenitIPOsinJune.Soyou'vegottothinkof$60billionasapercentageof$2trillion,anditendsupbeingastockdeal.Sothere'snocashinvolved.
Speaker 3
So again, some people might say, well, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
Words and timings
Soagain,somepeoplemightsay,well,youscratchmyback,I'llscratchyours.
Speaker 1
And they're paying 30 times revenue. Cursor's revenue is $2 billion. What is Cursor? Cursor is the equivalent of Codex. It's the user interface that people use to use underlying AIs. And its history is specializing in coding. But as these user interfaces evolve, they end up being used for everything, not just coding.
Words and timings
Andthey'repaying30timesrevenue.Cursor'srevenueis$2billion.WhatisCursor?CursoristheequivalentofCodex.It'stheuserinterfacethatpeopleusetouseunderlyingAIs.Anditshistoryisspecializingincoding.Butastheseuserinterfacesevolve,theyendupbeingusedforeverything,notjustcoding.
Speaker 3
So if OpenAI has Codex and Grok has Cursor, what does Anthropic have?
Words and timings
SoifOpenAIhasCodexandGrokhasCursor,whatdoesAnthropichave?
Speaker 1
Anthropic has the Claude app. which is on Windows and Mac. It also this week announced Claude Design, which is a Figma or Canva competitor, which is outstandingly good.
Words and timings
AnthropichastheClaudeapp.whichisonWindowsandMac.ItalsothisweekannouncedClaudeDesign,whichisaFigmaorCanvacompetitor,whichisoutstandinglygood.
Speaker 3
Yeah, although I asked my Claude, as you know, I'm a Claude person. I asked it if it could enable me not to use Canva, which is an AI kind of design tool, and it said no, not yet. So it's not an alternative to Canva, although the Canva... market, the stock price of Canva crashed after the release of this?
Words and timings
Yeah,althoughIaskedmyClaude,asyouknow,I'maClaudeperson.IaskeditifitcouldenablemenottouseCanva,whichisanAIkindofdesigntool,anditsaidno,notyet.Soit'snotanalternativetoCanva,althoughtheCanva...market,thestockpriceofCanvacrashedafterthereleaseofthis?
Speaker 1
Well, so firstly, Claude Design isn't in the Claude app. You've got to go to a URL on Claude's website to use it. It creates brand assets. So the things that designers, highly paid creative designers usually get paid to create for a company. And it does an extremely good job. I used it for SignalRank, really good. you can then export that into either Figma or Canva and have it become your base design for everything else you do in those environments. Now, if you also use image from OpenAI, you really can start to replace Canva and Figma.
Words and timings
Well,sofirstly,ClaudeDesignisn'tintheClaudeapp.You'vegottogotoaURLonClaude'swebsitetouseit.Itcreatesbrandassets.Sothethingsthatdesigners,highlypaidcreativedesignersusuallygetpaidtocreateforacompany.Anditdoesanextremelygoodjob.IuseditforSignalRank,reallygood.youcanthenexportthatintoeitherFigmaorCanvaandhaveitbecomeyourbasedesignforeverythingelseyoudointhoseenvironments.Now,ifyoualsouseimagefromOpenAI,youreallycanstarttoreplaceCanvaandFigma.
Speaker 3
Yeah, although you're... You're a pioneer or certainly very advanced in this. For someone like myself, who's more of an everyday user, that's not possible. But anyway, you put all these things together and we seem to be seeing the emergence of, I don't know whether you would call it an adult economy, but certainly a more coherent economy. Is that fair, Keith?
Words and timings
Yeah,althoughyou're...You'reapioneerorcertainlyveryadvancedinthis.Forsomeonelikemyself,who'smoreofaneverydayuser,that'snotpossible.Butanyway,youputallthesethingstogetherandweseemtobeseeingtheemergenceof,Idon'tknowwhetheryouwouldcallitanadulteconomy,butcertainlyamorecoherenteconomy.Isthatfair,Keith?
Speaker 1
I think that's very fair. That's exactly what's happening. I hope Dario can bite his tongue and stay on this trend.
Words and timings
Ithinkthat'sveryfair.That'sexactlywhat'shappening.IhopeDariocanbitehistongueandstayonthistrend.
Speaker 3
What is it about Dario that pisses you off so much? You're not alone, of course. Jan LeCun, as I said earlier, argues that Jan LeCun should keep his mouth shut when it comes to economics and jobs. Is he just an annoying guy to guys like yourself?
Words and timings
WhatisitaboutDariothatpissesyouoffsomuch?You'renotalone,ofcourse.JanLeCun,asIsaidearlier,arguesthatJanLeCunshouldkeephismouthshutwhenitcomestoeconomicsandjobs.Ishejustanannoyingguytoguyslikeyourself?
Speaker 1
He gets distracted by ideologically driven narratives that don't serve his business. And that doesn't help him or his business. And he's got to become more disciplined. I'm not against him at all. I'm more giving him advice.
Words and timings
Hegetsdistractedbyideologicallydrivennarrativesthatdon'tservehisbusiness.Andthatdoesn'thelphimorhisbusiness.Andhe'sgottobecomemoredisciplined.I'mnotagainsthimatall.I'mmoregivinghimadvice.
Speaker 3
Well, it's all interesting. Meanwhile, that's all very, very short term. Next week, maybe we'll have a Keith Teer editorial about these people becoming teenagers. But there are longer term consequences. There was a very interesting piece, I thought, in the in the FT this week. I don't know if you added it to the newsletter, Keith, about America's revolt is coming in the wired belt. I mean, clearly, the Facebook news this week that they were cutting 10% of stuff. The wired belt of people, professionals, people who have jobs in the late industrial or post-industrial economy. I mean, this thing is becoming real, is it?
Words and timings
Well,it'sallinteresting.Meanwhile,that'sallvery,veryshortterm.Nextweek,maybewe'llhaveaKeithTeereditorialaboutthesepeoplebecomingteenagers.Buttherearelongertermconsequences.Therewasaveryinterestingpiece,Ithought,intheintheFTthisweek.Idon'tknowifyouaddedittothenewsletter,Keith,aboutAmerica'srevoltiscominginthewiredbelt.Imean,clearly,theFacebooknewsthisweekthattheywerecutting10%ofstuff.Thewiredbeltofpeople,professionals,peoplewhohavejobsinthelateindustrialorpost-industrialeconomy.Imean,thisthingisbecomingreal,isit?
Speaker 1
Yeah, but I do think that's more of a consumer backlash against data centers driven by the belief that electricity prices will go up, which, you know, any amount of investigation you do will prove to you that that is going to happen. You know, government has made deals with all the AI companies that they have to be self-sufficient at the level of paying for power, and they're protecting consumers from the burden of that. But the zeitgeist doesn't yet understand that. So there is this consumer backlash. It's fairly populist and it's anti-big tech. And it is coming from working class communities in poorer towns. That's definitely true.
Words and timings
Yeah,butIdothinkthat'smoreofaconsumerbacklashagainstdatacentersdrivenbythebeliefthatelectricitypriceswillgoup,which,youknow,anyamountofinvestigationyoudowillprovetoyouthatthatisgoingtohappen.Youknow,governmenthasmadedealswithalltheAIcompaniesthattheyhavetobeself-sufficientatthelevelofpayingforpower,andthey'reprotectingconsumersfromtheburdenofthat.Butthezeitgeistdoesn'tyetunderstandthat.Sothereisthisconsumerbacklash.It'sfairlypopulistandit'santi-bigtech.Anditiscomingfromworkingclasscommunitiesinpoorertowns.That'sdefinitelytrue.
Speaker 3
So what's interesting is that the revolt is coming currently from the Rust Belt against the establishment of data centers, the wired belt has yet to revolt, although it seems to be brewing.
Words and timings
Sowhat'sinterestingisthattherevoltiscomingcurrentlyfromtheRustBeltagainsttheestablishmentofdatacenters,thewiredbelthasyettorevolt,althoughitseemstobebrewing.
Speaker 1
Well, there's anxiety, particularly amongst engineers, that automation is going to hit white collar jobs and jobs in tech. You know, every tech firm is having layoffs, everyone. And some of that is unraveling the exuberance of 2021 when money was flowing through the hallways and some of it is literally
Words and timings
Well,there'sanxiety,particularlyamongstengineers,thatautomationisgoingtohitwhitecollarjobsandjobsintech.Youknow,everytechfirmishavinglayoffs,everyone.Andsomeofthatisunravelingtheexuberanceof2021whenmoneywasflowingthroughthehallwaysandsomeofitisliterally
Speaker 3
flowing through the hallways.
Words and timings
flowingthroughthehallways.
Speaker 1
Metaphorically, of course,
Words and timings
Metaphorically,ofcourse,
Speaker 3
pick it up,
Words and timings
pickitup,
Speaker 1
but, but so some of it is that it's the unraveling, you know, Salesforce lost 10% of its value yet yesterday in one day.
Words and timings
but,butsosomeofitisthatit'stheunraveling,youknow,Salesforcelost10%ofitsvalueyetyesterdayinoneday.
Speaker 3
How much was that?
Words and timings
Howmuchwasthat?
Speaker 1
15 billion, I think, or something like that.
Words and timings
15billion,Ithink,orsomethinglikethat.
Speaker 3
Although Salesforce is increasingly seems to be, uh, Roadkill is a classic company that's roadkill in this new economy, isn't it?
Words and timings
AlthoughSalesforceisincreasinglyseemstobe,uh,Roadkillisaclassiccompanythat'sroadkillinthisneweconomy,isn'tit?
Speaker 1
You know, I think it's probably a buy now. The market's over. Salesforce this week announced Headless Salesforce, which sounds like a weird thing, but Headless Salesforce just means you can use Salesforce using APIs.
Words and timings
Youknow,Ithinkit'sprobablyabuynow.Themarket'sover.SalesforcethisweekannouncedHeadlessSalesforce,whichsoundslikeaweirdthing,butHeadlessSalesforcejustmeansyoucanuseSalesforceusingAPIs.
Speaker 3
And Headless, of course, gets to the core issue, the longer term issue, which is on the back of many people's minds, the front of many economists' mind, on the minds both of the Wired Belt and the Rust Belt, and it comes to jobs. What are we gonna do in this new economy as it becomes more and more mature? There was a good piece, I thought, by Alex Imass, Keith, in your newsletter this week, which gets to the core issue. of this brave new world. What will be scarce? In other words, what will have value in this new world? And nobody knows the answer. Lacan is critical of Dario because he hasn't really given that a great deal of thought. But the harder you think about it, the trickier it becomes.
Words and timings
AndHeadless,ofcourse,getstothecoreissue,thelongertermissue,whichisonthebackofmanypeople'sminds,thefrontofmanyeconomists'mind,onthemindsbothoftheWiredBeltandtheRustBelt,anditcomestojobs.Whatarewegonnadointhisneweconomyasitbecomesmoreandmoremature?Therewasagoodpiece,Ithought,byAlexImass,Keith,inyournewsletterthisweek,whichgetstothecoreissue.ofthisbravenewworld.Whatwillbescarce?Inotherwords,whatwillhavevalueinthisnewworld?Andnobodyknowstheanswer.LacaniscriticalofDariobecausehehasn'treallygiventhatagreatdealofthought.Buttheharderyouthinkaboutit,thetrickieritbecomes.
Speaker 1
Well, there's logic. You can use logic. You can't really predict outcomes because as we've always said on That Was The Week, human agency is the key variable. What do people choose to do is the key variable, and that's hard to predict.
Words and timings
Well,there'slogic.Youcanuselogic.Youcan'treallypredictoutcomesbecauseaswe'vealwayssaidonThatWasTheWeek,humanagencyisthekeyvariable.Whatdopeoplechoosetodoisthekeyvariable,andthat'shardtopredict.
Speaker 3
Hold on on that. I mean, there's some truth to that, but however much, I mean, everybody wants jobs, right? I don't think there's anyone in the world who would say would be pleased if all work disappears. But if this AI, as Emas suggests, or he quotes a new paper by two very influential economists, David Autor and Neil Thompson, who consider the starker possibility that AI advances, and I'm quoting the piece, AI advances to the point where human expertise loses its economic value altogether. And in that sense, We won't have jobs. We won't have value. So that's the real threat in the long term.
Words and timings
Holdononthat.Imean,there'ssometruthtothat,buthowevermuch,Imean,everybodywantsjobs,right?Idon'tthinkthere'sanyoneintheworldwhowouldsaywouldbepleasedifallworkdisappears.ButifthisAI,asEmassuggests,orhequotesanewpaperbytwoveryinfluentialeconomists,DavidAutorandNeilThompson,whoconsiderthestarkerpossibilitythatAIadvances,andI'mquotingthepiece,AIadvancestothepointwherehumanexpertiselosesitseconomicvaluealtogether.Andinthatsense,Wewon'thavejobs.Wewon'thavevalue.Sothat'stherealthreatinthelongterm.
Speaker 1
Well, let's do a kind of a deeper dive here and have a kind of an intellectual timeout. The word job is not an economic word. Paid labor.
Words and timings
Well,let'sdoakindofadeeperdivehereandhaveakindofanintellectualtimeout.Thewordjobisnotaneconomicword.Paidlabor.
Speaker 3
Okay, well, I agree. Let's leave jobs out of it. Paid labor or value, economic value. How are we going to be paid?
Words and timings
Okay,well,Iagree.Let'sleavejobsoutofit.Paidlabororvalue,economicvalue.Howarewegoingtobepaid?
Speaker 1
So value is the product of labor and capital, just to define our terms. And in this article, they rightly say that it is highly likely that labor will cease to be part of a commodity.
Words and timings
Sovalueistheproductoflaborandcapital,justtodefineourterms.Andinthisarticle,theyrightlysaythatitishighlylikelythatlaborwillceasetobepartofacommodity.
Speaker 1
The commodity economy we live in, where in order to get something, you have to pay for it. And what is inside of it is labor and capital congealed, will become just capital and there will be no labor in it. Now, because of that, it ceases to be a commodity. It's no longer a commodity. It's a thing, but it's not a commodity in any economic sense. And it's probably priced at zero.
Words and timings
Thecommodityeconomywelivein,whereinordertogetsomething,youhavetopayforit.Andwhatisinsideofitislaborandcapitalcongealed,willbecomejustcapitalandtherewillbenolaborinit.Now,becauseofthat,itceasestobeacommodity.It'snolongeracommodity.It'sathing,butit'snotacommodityinanyeconomicsense.Andit'sprobablypricedatzero.
Speaker 3
Here's what I don't understand. I mean, currently, in the early AI economy, these guys are pricing their products. Why will it ever be priced at zero? There'll still be always some element of labor in it. There's going to be thought, there's going to be some entrepreneur who is selling, who is using AI to create something of value, isn't there?
Words and timings
Here'swhatIdon'tunderstand.Imean,currently,intheearlyAIeconomy,theseguysarepricingtheirproducts.Whywilliteverbepricedatzero?There'llstillbealwayssomeelementoflaborinit.There'sgoingtobethought,there'sgoingtobesomeentrepreneurwhoisselling,whoisusingAItocreatesomethingofvalue,isn'tthere?
Speaker 1
Well, the article you're talking about, what will be scarce, basically says that there will not be labor in it. Now, that is only a logical proposition. In real life, that might never happen, or it might take a very long time. But it's just a logical proposition. And as a logical proposition, in pure economic terms, it actually makes sense.
Words and timings
Well,thearticleyou'retalkingabout,whatwillbescarce,basicallysaysthattherewillnotbelaborinit.Now,thatisonlyalogicalproposition.Inreallife,thatmightneverhappen,oritmighttakeaverylongtime.Butit'sjustalogicalproposition.Andasalogicalproposition,inpureeconomicterms,itactuallymakessense.
Speaker 1
You know, the author then says, well, what will be scarce in that world? That's their framing. And what they say will be scarce is reducible down to a single word, creativity, or labor.
Words and timings
Youknow,theauthorthensays,well,whatwillbescarceinthatworld?That'stheirframing.Andwhattheysaywillbescarceisreducibledowntoasingleword,creativity,orlabor.
Speaker 3
The term they use is human services. They say from farms, which was obviously the old agricultural economy, to factories, the industrial economy, to dot, dot, dot. They talk about something called the human services industry, everything from arts to education to hospitality, things that machines can't do.
Words and timings
Thetermtheyuseishumanservices.Theysayfromfarms,whichwasobviouslytheoldagriculturaleconomy,tofactories,theindustrialeconomy,todot,dot,dot.Theytalkaboutsomethingcalledthehumanservicesindustry,everythingfromartstoeducationtohospitality,thingsthatmachinescan'tdo.
Speaker 1
Right. And, you know, one example is a nurse. I was just in surgery on Monday. And that's my second visit to a hospital in about a month. And, you know, you can't really replace the human compassion and guidance of a nurse in a health situation with robotics. You can probably do some of the functions with robotics, but you're not going to replace the humanness of it. And there's lots of other examples in this article of humanness, let's call it. And now the hard thing is in a world where commodities have gone and most things are free, what would drive a person to want to have paid labor? Because they wouldn't need to for their life.
Words and timings
Right.And,youknow,oneexampleisanurse.IwasjustinsurgeryonMonday.Andthat'smysecondvisittoahospitalinaboutamonth.And,youknow,youcan'treallyreplacethehumancompassionandguidanceofanurseinahealthsituationwithrobotics.Youcanprobablydosomeofthefunctionswithrobotics,butyou'renotgoingtoreplacethehumannessofit.Andthere'slotsofotherexamplesinthisarticleofhumanness,let'scallit.Andnowthehardthingisinaworldwherecommoditieshavegoneandmostthingsarefree,whatwoulddriveapersontowanttohavepaidlabor?Becausetheywouldn'tneedtofortheirlife.
Speaker 3
And it comes down... Well, this comes... The other issue, which I'm not sure how much this piece addresses, is they still have to pay for food. They still have to pay for accommodation. I mean, not everything is free.
Words and timings
Anditcomesdown...Well,thiscomes...Theotherissue,whichI'mnotsurehowmuchthispieceaddresses,istheystillhavetopayforfood.Theystillhavetopayforaccommodation.Imean,noteverythingisfree.
Speaker 1
Not in their world. In their world, and again, it's a logical proposition, it's not a prediction. uh food is one of the commodities that is essentially free because it's due to abundance so what they're really saying is in a world of abundance what what is scarce they're not just saying what is scarce in the abstract they're saying in a
Words and timings
Notintheirworld.Intheirworld,andagain,it'salogicalproposition,it'snotaprediction.uhfoodisoneofthecommoditiesthatisessentiallyfreebecauseit'sduetoabundancesowhatthey'rereallysayingisinaworldofabundancewhatwhatisscarcethey'renotjustsayingwhatisscarceintheabstractthey'resayingina
Speaker 3
world of when you say they who are you talking about the author of the piece yeah alex emas or the thompson auteur white paper both actually thompson is part of this
Words and timings
worldofwhenyousaytheywhoareyoutalkingabouttheauthorofthepieceyeahalexemasorthethompsonauteurwhitepaperbothactuallythompsonispartofthis
Speaker 1
and and you know uh I think if you really understand labor, capital, the commodification of economics in capitalism and what is changing, you can't help but agree with a lot of what's in this article.
Words and timings
andandyouknowuhIthinkifyoureallyunderstandlabor,capital,thecommodificationofeconomicsincapitalismandwhatischanging,youcan'thelpbutagreewithalotofwhat'sinthisarticle.
Speaker 3
Well, they're, but I'm not sure they're on the same page. They're also concerned. I mean, they don't see this as some utopia. They're very worried with the implications.
Words and timings
Well,they're,butI'mnotsurethey'reonthesamepage.They'realsoconcerned.Imean,theydon'tseethisassomeutopia.They'reveryworriedwiththeimplications.
Speaker 1
Well, you know, that's the subjective thing, whether, you know, There probably were people worried when the 12-hour day went down to an eight-hour day that, you know, people will get drunk and be on the streets or something.
Words and timings
Well,youknow,that'sthesubjectivething,whether,youknow,Thereprobablywerepeopleworriedwhenthe12-hourdaywentdowntoaneight-hourdaythat,youknow,peoplewillgetdrunkandbeonthestreetsorsomething.
Speaker 3
There's always a... Or on their cell phones.
Words and timings
There'salwaysa...Orontheircellphones.
Speaker 1
Yeah. There's always... The elite always have a dire view of the masses unless the masses are preoccupied with necessity and, you know, spending their money on cigarettes and beer, which is frowned upon but is better than...
Words and timings
Yeah.There'salways...Theelitealwayshaveadireviewofthemassesunlessthemassesarepreoccupiedwithnecessityand,youknow,spendingtheirmoneyoncigarettesandbeer,whichisfrowneduponbutisbetterthan...
Speaker 3
So to quote the piece, the future of work, if the model is right, the durable jobs of the future won't be about monitoring AI systems or prompt engineering. Those are transitional jobs in the automated sector. The durable jobs will be in the relational sector where the human element is the product itself. Some already exist and are growing. As you say, nurses, therapists, teachers, boutique fitness instructors, personal chefs, bespoke tailors, craft brewers, live performers, spiritual guides, childcare workers, and many varieties of hospitality and care work. So that's what people should be doing. There was a piece a couple of weeks ago about how nursing now has become the most popular major in university. Certainly, it might be wiser to study nursing than law or engineering or software.
Words and timings
Sotoquotethepiece,thefutureofwork,ifthemodelisright,thedurablejobsofthefuturewon'tbeaboutmonitoringAIsystemsorpromptengineering.Thosearetransitionaljobsintheautomatedsector.Thedurablejobswillbeintherelationalsectorwherethehumanelementistheproductitself.Somealreadyexistandaregrowing.Asyousay,nurses,therapists,teachers,boutiquefitnessinstructors,personalchefs,bespoketailors,craftbrewers,liveperformers,spiritualguides,childcareworkers,andmanyvarietiesofhospitalityandcarework.Sothat'swhatpeopleshouldbedoing.Therewasapieceacoupleofweeksagoabouthownursingnowhasbecomethemostpopularmajorinuniversity.Certainly,itmightbewisertostudynursingthanlaworengineeringorsoftware.
Speaker 1
Well, human to human, I think, is the broader umbrella there. And, you know, it's kind of interesting if you think about the individual. The individual as a social animal needs other humans. And a lot of that is through family, friends, through work, which, if that goes away, is missing. Probably religion makes a comeback.
Words and timings
Well,humantohuman,Ithink,isthebroaderumbrellathere.And,youknow,it'skindofinterestingifyouthinkabouttheindividual.Theindividualasasocialanimalneedsotherhumans.Andalotofthatisthroughfamily,friends,throughwork,which,ifthatgoesaway,ismissing.Probablyreligionmakesacomeback.
Speaker 3
I think it's already making a comeback. But, you know, there is the political element here, and you quote Reid Hoffman, one of the few Silicon Valley billionaires who's clearly on the left. He writes in his new sub-stack, Faith in the Possible, technology's arc bends, I mean, obviously borrowed from Martin Luther King, technology's arc bends towards access and but it does not bend on its own. So that bending still requires a third force. It's not going to come just through anthropic or open AI. It's got to come through the government, doesn't it, Keith?
Words and timings
Ithinkit'salreadymakingacomeback.But,youknow,thereisthepoliticalelementhere,andyouquoteReidHoffman,oneofthefewSiliconValleybillionaireswho'sclearlyontheleft.Hewritesinhisnewsub-stack,FaithinthePossible,technology'sarcbends,Imean,obviouslyborrowedfromMartinLutherKing,technology'sarcbendstowardsaccessandbutitdoesnotbendonitsown.Sothatbendingstillrequiresathirdforce.It'snotgoingtocomejustthroughanthropicoropenAI.It'sgottocomethroughthegovernment,doesn'tit,Keith?
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's interesting. Going back to the beginning, the Brockman-Altman interview, they talked about the future in this context. And Altman said, well, there's three possibilities. His favorite possibility was that... abundance lifts everyone up to a much higher standard. But it also exacerbates inequality. That was his favorite outcome. He had two other worse outcomes, one of which was apocalyptic.
Words and timings
Yeah,it'sinteresting.Goingbacktothebeginning,theBrockman-Altmaninterview,theytalkedaboutthefutureinthiscontext.AndAltmansaid,well,there'sthreepossibilities.Hisfavoritepossibilitywasthat...abundanceliftseveryoneuptoamuchhigherstandard.Butitalsoexacerbatesinequality.Thatwashisfavoriteoutcome.Hehadtwootherworseoutcomes,oneofwhichwasapocalyptic.
Speaker 3
So in other words, the best case scenario is more inequality, according to Sam,
Words and timings
Soinotherwords,thebestcasescenarioismoreinequality,accordingtoSam,
Speaker 1
he thinks that that will happen. Now what is missing is what Reid Hoffman brings to the table, which is human agency when faced with abundance, has an open question, what should we do with the, I don't think the right word is value, but wealth, what should we do with the wealth that's created through automation? And you know, the obvious answer is, everything that humans need to enjoy their life should be improved, travel, teaching, education, health, and so on.
Words and timings
hethinksthatthatwillhappen.NowwhatismissingiswhatReidHoffmanbringstothetable,whichishumanagencywhenfacedwithabundance,hasanopenquestion,whatshouldwedowiththe,Idon'tthinktherightwordisvalue,butwealth,whatshouldwedowiththewealththat'screatedthroughautomation?Andyouknow,theobviousansweris,everythingthathumansneedtoenjoytheirlifeshouldbeimproved,travel,teaching,education,health,andsoon.
Speaker 3
Well, I think the obvious, or certainly from a progressive point of view, the logic is that AI should be commonly owned by all of us because we're all contributing to it. So we should all be beneficiaries rather than just a tiny group of Silicon Valley entrepreneurs like Greg Brockman, Sam Altman, Reid Hoffman, Jan LeCun, Dario Amidon.
Words and timings
Well,Ithinktheobvious,orcertainlyfromaprogressivepointofview,thelogicisthatAIshouldbecommonlyownedbyallofusbecausewe'reallcontributingtoit.SoweshouldallbebeneficiariesratherthanjustatinygroupofSiliconValleyentrepreneurslikeGregBrockman,SamAltman,ReidHoffman,JanLeCun,DarioAmidon.
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's the thesis in that famous book, For Us the Living, that Robert Heimline wrote during the Second World War, actually, where he talked about a heritage bonus, basically the bonus for being human and living at a time when human history has evolved towards automation and the end of commodities. is that there's a bonus that all humans get. They call it the heritage check, which came to people every month or every week. And that came from the Austrian school of monetary economics that believes that printing money is not inflationary as long as there's consumption.
Words and timings
Yeah,that'sthethesisinthatfamousbook,ForUstheLiving,thatRobertHeimlinewroteduringtheSecondWorldWar,actually,wherehetalkedaboutaheritagebonus,basicallythebonusforbeinghumanandlivingatatimewhenhumanhistoryhasevolvedtowardsautomationandtheendofcommodities.isthatthere'sabonusthatallhumansget.Theycallittheheritagecheck,whichcametopeopleeverymonthoreveryweek.AndthatcamefromtheAustrianschoolofmonetaryeconomicsthatbelievesthatprintingmoneyisnotinflationaryaslongasthere'sconsumption.
Speaker 3
But I mean, the heritage, but you're always talking about this post-money economy. You get a heritage check, whatever that means. How are you going to spend it if there's no longer any money?
Words and timings
ButImean,theheritage,butyou'realwaystalkingaboutthispost-moneyeconomy.Yougetaheritagecheck,whateverthatmeans.Howareyougoingtospenditifthere'snolongeranymoney?
Speaker 1
Yeah, Musk makes this point that money is hard for us symbolically to remove from our minds. But money is just a way of where scarce resources are allocated and that people with money get more than people without money. Once there is no scarce resources, the function of money is massively reduced.
Words and timings
Yeah,Muskmakesthispointthatmoneyishardforussymbolicallytoremovefromourminds.Butmoneyisjustawayofwherescarceresourcesareallocatedandthatpeoplewithmoneygetmorethanpeoplewithoutmoney.Oncethereisnoscarceresources,thefunctionofmoneyismassivelyreduced.
Speaker 3
Well, we got the very, very short term. We got the very, very long term. Somewhere in between, we're beginning to friend the machine. My interview of the week is with a Canadian writer, Victoria Hetherington, who has a new book out, The Friend Machine, on the trail of AI companionship. I know, Keith, you looked at the interview and thought that She didn't respond to my questions. What's your sense of our current relationship with machines? Is this the way to end our loneliness? You talked about all this isolation.
Words and timings
Well,wegotthevery,veryshortterm.Wegotthevery,verylongterm.Somewhereinbetween,we'rebeginningtofriendthemachine.MyinterviewoftheweekiswithaCanadianwriter,VictoriaHetherington,whohasanewbookout,TheFriendMachine,onthetrailofAIcompanionship.Iknow,Keith,youlookedattheinterviewandthoughtthatShedidn'trespondtomyquestions.What'syoursenseofourcurrentrelationshipwithmachines?Isthisthewaytoendourloneliness?Youtalkedaboutallthisisolation.
Speaker 1
Well, look, there is a dimension of that. I mean, when I use my AI agent every day, the open claw one, it feels like you're talking to a being because it's doing things for you and coming back with answers. So there is certainly a kind of a presence which is proactive, like you would only be able to have with a sentient being. And so humans are wide open to that relationship. What she talks about is taking that to an extreme where she has examples of people forming sexual relationships with robots that have AIs attached to them and stuff like that. That is a bit, you know, I agree with her. That's the sad version. It's when loneliness isn't resolved through human-to-human connection, but it's resolved through human-to-machine connection. I don't think that is a good outcome for the human race. I doubt it's going to be the main outcome for most people. I think more time with other humans is the big win.
Words and timings
Well,look,thereisadimensionofthat.Imean,whenIusemyAIagenteveryday,theopenclawone,itfeelslikeyou'retalkingtoabeingbecauseit'sdoingthingsforyouandcomingbackwithanswers.Sothereiscertainlyakindofapresencewhichisproactive,likeyouwouldonlybeabletohavewithasentientbeing.Andsohumansarewideopentothatrelationship.WhatshetalksaboutistakingthattoanextremewhereshehasexamplesofpeopleformingsexualrelationshipswithrobotsthathaveAIsattachedtothemandstufflikethat.Thatisabit,youknow,Iagreewithher.That'sthesadversion.It'swhenlonelinessisn'tresolvedthroughhuman-to-humanconnection,butit'sresolvedthroughhuman-to-machineconnection.Idon'tthinkthatisagoodoutcomeforthehumanrace.Idoubtit'sgoingtobethemainoutcomeformostpeople.Ithinkmoretimewithotherhumansisthebigwin.
Speaker 3
Well, you and I spent a lot of time together, Keith, and we're human. That was the week, the week that AI, at least according to Keith Teer, the week that AI leaders matured. Some people might say that was not very hard given how immature they've been. But we shall see. This is ongoing. Next week, I'm sure we will talk about some crisis or crash or other opportunity. Keep well, Keith, and we will talk next week.
Words and timings
Well,youandIspentalotoftimetogether,Keith,andwe'rehuman.Thatwastheweek,theweekthatAI,atleastaccordingtoKeithTeer,theweekthatAIleadersmatured.Somepeoplemightsaythatwasnotveryhardgivenhowimmaturethey'vebeen.Butweshallsee.Thisisongoing.Nextweek,I'msurewewilltalkaboutsomecrisisorcrashorotheropportunity.Keepwell,Keith,andwewilltalknextweek.
Speaker 1
Bye, everyone.
Words and timings
Bye,everyone.