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Words and timings
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Hands Off Sam Altman!
Apr 11, 2026 ยท 2026 #12. Read the transcript grouped by speaker, inspect word-level timecodes, and optionally turn subtitles on for direct video playback
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Hands Off Sam Altman!
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Speaker 3
It's Saturday, the 11th of April, 2026, at least in San Francisco, where I'm talking from. The news in San Francisco is that yesterday a Molotov cocktail was hurled at the home of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, according to the New York Times. He doesn't live very far away from me. I didn't hear it or see it, but I assume it's true. Meanwhile, Keith Tears' That Was The Week editorial has a very different image. It's of Sam Altman being escorted by police, or at least people who look to be police, but are actually wearing the badge not of the NYPD, but of the New Yorker. It's an interesting fake video that Keith is an expert in making, and it forms... The basis of his editorial this week, hands off Sam Altman. It's very much in response to a piece that The New Yorker wrote this week on Sam called Sam Altman May Control Our Future, Can He Be Trusted? Keith, I hope you didn't hurl that Molotov cocktail at Sam's house, did you? Were you up in San Francisco yesterday?
Words and timings
It'sSaturday,the11thofApril,2026,atleastinSanFrancisco,whereI'mtalkingfrom.ThenewsinSanFranciscoisthatyesterdayaMolotovcocktailwashurledatthehomeofOpenAICEOSamAltman,accordingtotheNewYorkTimes.Hedoesn'tliveveryfarawayfromme.Ididn'thearitorseeit,butIassumeit'strue.Meanwhile,KeithTears'ThatWasTheWeekeditorialhasaverydifferentimage.It'sofSamAltmanbeingescortedbypolice,oratleastpeoplewholooktobepolice,butareactuallywearingthebadgenotoftheNYPD,butoftheNewYorker.It'saninterestingfakevideothatKeithisanexpertinmaking,anditforms...Thebasisofhiseditorialthisweek,handsoffSamAltman.It'sverymuchinresponsetoapiecethatTheNewYorkerwrotethisweekonSamcalledSamAltmanMayControlOurFuture,CanHeBeTrusted?Keith,Ihopeyoudidn'thurlthatMolotovcocktailatSam'shouse,didyou?WereyouupinSanFranciscoyesterday?
Speaker 2
Not me, Andrew, not me. And if you read the editorial, it's highly unlikely that
Words and timings
Notme,Andrew,notme.Andifyoureadtheeditorial,it'shighlyunlikelythat
Speaker 3
Well, you could be just, you know, some people are very clever and they appear to be against, they appear to be defending Sam Maltman, but actually are hurling Molotov cocktails at his house. Anyway, I trust you on that one.
Words and timings
Well,youcouldbejust,youknow,somepeopleareverycleverandtheyappeartobeagainst,theyappeartobedefendingSamMaltman,butactuallyarehurlingMolotovcocktailsathishouse.Anyway,Itrustyouonthatone.
Speaker 2
I don't think it's you. Isn't there a famous Shakespearean quote? He came to something me, but then he something something. Yeah, that's very useful, Keith. He came to praise me in something.
Words and timings
Idon'tthinkit'syou.Isn'tthereafamousShakespeareanquote?Hecametosomethingme,butthenhesomethingsomething.Yeah,that'sveryuseful,Keith.Hecametopraisemeinsomething.
Speaker 3
Oh, Barry, yeah. Anyway, so back to your friend Sam. This video you made of him being arrested in New York City, of all places. I think it looks like it's down on the Bowery by New Yorker agents. What's happening here?
Words and timings
Oh,Barry,yeah.Anyway,sobacktoyourfriendSam.ThisvideoyoumadeofhimbeingarrestedinNewYorkCity,ofallplaces.Ithinkitlookslikeit'sdownontheBowerybyNewYorkeragents.What'shappeninghere?
Speaker 2
So... Amazingly, the New Yorker published a very long rambling piece by two authors.
Words and timings
So...Amazingly,theNewYorkerpublishedaverylongramblingpiecebytwoauthors.
Speaker 3
Well, let's name them at least. You've got to give them that credit. Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz. Farrow, of course, doesn't need much of an introduction. Marantz is their business tech, one of their business and tech guys. It is incredibly long. I mean, it's got to be 15,000 words.
Words and timings
Well,let'snamethematleast.You'vegottogivethemthatcredit.RonanFarrowandAndrewMarantz.Farrow,ofcourse,doesn'tneedmuchofanintroduction.Marantzistheirbusinesstech,oneoftheirbusinessandtechguys.Itisincrediblylong.Imean,it'sgottobe15,000words.
Speaker 2
It's long, it's rambling, there's nothing new in it. There's absolutely no insight that hasn't been published before. So it's like, it's like an obsessive gossip piece that belongs in, in, you know, magazines my mum would have read in the 90s.
Words and timings
It'slong,it'srambling,there'snothingnewinit.There'sabsolutelynoinsightthathasn'tbeenpublishedbefore.Soit'slike,it'slikeanobsessivegossippiecethatbelongsin,in,youknow,magazinesmymumwouldhavereadinthe90s.
Speaker 3
Oh, your mother, Keith, you're insulting your mother on the show.
Words and timings
Oh,yourmother,Keith,you'reinsultingyourmotherontheshow.
Speaker 2
Well, all mums in those days were reading such magazines, they were called woman and Woman's own and things like that. And what did men read?
Words and timings
Well,allmumsinthosedayswerereadingsuchmagazines,theywerecalledwomanandWoman'sownandthingslikethat.Andwhatdidmenread?
Speaker 3
They just beat their wives up those days, got drunk, beat their wives up while the wives were reading Woman's own?
Words and timings
Theyjustbeattheirwivesupthosedays,gotdrunk,beattheirwivesupwhilethewiveswerereadingWoman'sown?
Speaker 2
Sadly, they did, Andrew. It's actually true. They did do that.
Words and timings
Sadly,theydid,Andrew.It'sactuallytrue.Theydiddothat.
Speaker 3
That's what happened in the north of England, anyway. I'm not sure if it was true in North London where I grew up.
Words and timings
That'swhathappenedinthenorthofEngland,anyway.I'mnotsureifitwastrueinNorthLondonwhereIgrewup.
Speaker 2
But anyway, that's another story. But what's amazing is the piece got massive coverage and take-up. Rowan was on TV. I saw him interviewed on CNN. Ronan, not Rowan. Sorry, Ronan. Ronan was on TV, left and right, almost every channel, as if some major insight existed. And so it was impossible to ignore this article last week. It was everywhere. And it contrasted with equally wall-to-wall news about Anthropic to do with a new model that they introduced. So once again, and I think this is like the fifth week in a row, headlines are dominated by Dario Amidai and Sam Altman. And then last night after this title had been put to bed, Altman got a Molotov cocktail on his house. It's almost like we anticipated.
Words and timings
Butanyway,that'sanotherstory.Butwhat'samazingisthepiecegotmassivecoverageandtake-up.RowanwasonTV.IsawhiminterviewedonCNN.Ronan,notRowan.Sorry,Ronan.RonanwasonTV,leftandright,almosteverychannel,asifsomemajorinsightexisted.Andsoitwasimpossibletoignorethisarticlelastweek.Itwaseverywhere.Anditcontrastedwithequallywall-to-wallnewsaboutAnthropictodowithanewmodelthattheyintroduced.Soonceagain,andIthinkthisislikethefifthweekinarow,headlinesaredominatedbyDarioAmidaiandSamAltman.Andthenlastnightafterthistitlehadbeenputtobed,AltmangotaMolotovcocktailonhishouse.It'salmostlikeweanticipated.
Speaker 3
We're not going to blame the New Yorker for that, are we Keith? There was some irate San Franciscan who who read The New Yorker and thought, well, this Sam Altman is so slippery that I'm going to have to hurl a Molotov cocktail at his house. He lives in a big house up in Pacific Heights. So it's not actually hard to hurl at it because it's massive.
Words and timings
We'renotgoingtoblametheNewYorkerforthat,areweKeith?TherewassomeirateSanFranciscanwhowhoreadTheNewYorkerandthought,well,thisSamAltmanissoslipperythatI'mgoingtohavetohurlaMolotovcocktailathishouse.HelivesinabighouseupinPacificHeights.Soit'snotactuallyhardtohurlatitbecauseit'smassive.
Speaker 2
I would say The New Yorker is just reflecting. The reason it got taken up is the zeitgeist around Altman is that he's dodgy, Slippery Sam. Slippery Sam. And this was just a hit piece, not even a very good hit piece, but it was a hit piece. And journalists left and right seized on it because they agree with it. And so you've got, once again, the media with its own agenda, completely separate to anything going on in the real world, creating the story themselves. And, you know, the story is Sam Altman. which is a non-story in my view. It's just not a story.
Words and timings
IwouldsayTheNewYorkerisjustreflecting.ThereasonitgottakenupisthezeitgeistaroundAltmanisthathe'sdodgy,SlipperySam.SlipperySam.Andthiswasjustahitpiece,notevenaverygoodhitpiece,butitwasahitpiece.Andjournalistsleftandrightseizedonitbecausetheyagreewithit.Andsoyou'vegot,onceagain,themediawithitsownagenda,completelyseparatetoanythinggoingonintherealworld,creatingthestorythemselves.And,youknow,thestoryisSamAltman.whichisanon-storyinmyview.It'sjustnotastory.
Speaker 3
Yeah, you quote in your editorial, Altman is moving into musk-like territory in terms of media frenzy. You say that this personality-driven circus is mostly a sideshow. You don't mention your mother in the editorial. No, I don't. You can keep that one out of it. Yeah, I mean, look, you and I disagree, I think, in some times on Altman. But I actually agree with you. I think that... i don't think it's a media conspiracy it's the zeitgeist and the the media is both the product of the zeitgeist and also creates it and the people who write this stuff believe it and the people who read it believe it there is a growing not more more than a distrust a growing dislike for big tech i mean the other piece of news this week is that bernie sanders and AOC, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have proposed a moratorium on new AI data centers. I think that AI data centers are becoming perhaps the political stage on a lot of this stuff's being built. Another of the pieces that you have in this week's newsletter is by Brian Merchant. I've been on my show a couple of times, the author of Blood in the Machine, an excellent book on Luddism, on the Luddite movement, both then and now. And Brian entitles his piece, It's Open Season for Refusing AI.
Words and timings
Yeah,youquoteinyoureditorial,Altmanismovingintomusk-liketerritoryintermsofmediafrenzy.Yousaythatthispersonality-drivencircusismostlyasideshow.Youdon'tmentionyourmotherintheeditorial.No,Idon't.Youcankeepthatoneoutofit.Yeah,Imean,look,youandIdisagree,Ithink,insometimesonAltman.ButIactuallyagreewithyou.Ithinkthat...idon'tthinkit'samediaconspiracyit'sthezeitgeistandthethemediaisboththeproductofthezeitgeistandalsocreatesitandthepeoplewhowritethisstuffbelieveitandthepeoplewhoreaditbelieveitthereisagrowingnotmoremorethanadistrustagrowingdislikeforbigtechimeantheotherpieceofnewsthisweekisthatberniesandersandAOC,AlexandriaOcasio-CortezhaveproposedamoratoriumonnewAIdatacenters.IthinkthatAIdatacentersarebecomingperhapsthepoliticalstageonalotofthisstuff'sbeingbuilt.Anotherofthepiecesthatyouhaveinthisweek'snewsletterisbyBrianMerchant.I'vebeenonmyshowacoupleoftimes,theauthorofBloodintheMachine,anexcellentbookonLuddism,ontheLudditemovement,boththenandnow.AndBrianentitleshispiece,It'sOpenSeasonforRefusingAI.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, this is not new to this show. It's been our theme for several weeks in a row now because you just can't escape it. Last week, we talked about the documentary, the AI doc. And a couple of weeks before that, we talked about the doomsters versus the optimists and indicated that neither really represents the right point of view about AI. And I think this week, the right message is probably best squeezed out of the Anthropic news. Anthropic's latest model, which is called Mythic, I almost wanted to call it mystic, but it's mythic, eclipses software in cybersecurity and has exposed decades-old vulnerabilities in software that had been unknown to specialist software and has led to Anthropic not releasing the model openly because it could be used to do cyber intrusion. until they've patched all the vulnerabilities it found. And that probably is closer to what the news should be. The news should be about the impact of AI, its growing capability, and how to use it, and what for.
Words and timings
Yeah.Yeah.And,youknow,thisisnotnewtothisshow.It'sbeenourthemeforseveralweeksinarownowbecauseyoujustcan'tescapeit.Lastweek,wetalkedaboutthedocumentary,theAIdoc.Andacoupleofweeksbeforethat,wetalkedaboutthedoomstersversustheoptimistsandindicatedthatneitherreallyrepresentstherightpointofviewaboutAI.AndIthinkthisweek,therightmessageisprobablybestsqueezedoutoftheAnthropicnews.Anthropic'slatestmodel,whichiscalledMythic,Ialmostwantedtocallitmystic,butit'smythic,eclipsessoftwareincybersecurityandhasexposeddecades-oldvulnerabilitiesinsoftwarethathadbeenunknowntospecialistsoftwareandhasledtoAnthropicnotreleasingthemodelopenlybecauseitcouldbeusedtodocyberintrusion.untilthey'vepatchedallthevulnerabilitiesitfound.Andthatprobablyisclosertowhatthenewsshouldbe.ThenewsshouldbeabouttheimpactofAI,itsgrowingcapability,andhowtouseit,andwhatfor.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, to be fair, the media isn't just running huge anti-TAM stories. There's a lot of stuff about the Anthropic release this week. A lot of stuff about responses from senior administration people, Besant, for example, on the fear of this new model. Should we be fearing it? Should banks be fearing it? Should the government be fearing it? I mean, Dario made news over the last few weeks by...
Words and timings
Yeah,Imean,tobefair,themediaisn'tjustrunninghugeanti-TAMstories.There'salotofstuffabouttheAnthropicreleasethisweek.Alotofstuffaboutresponsesfromsenioradministrationpeople,Besant,forexample,onthefearofthisnewmodel.Shouldwebefearingit?Shouldbanksbefearingit?Shouldthegovernmentbefearingit?Imean,Dariomadenewsoverthelastfewweeksby...
Speaker 3
arguing with the government about how they should and shouldn't use his technology when it comes to defence. In a way, isn't this news confirmation of Dario's concerns?
Words and timings
arguingwiththegovernmentabouthowtheyshouldandshouldn'tusehistechnologywhenitcomestodefence.Inaway,isn'tthisnewsconfirmationofDario'sconcerns?
Speaker 2
Well, you could look at it in two ways. I think one of the ways is, as you just said it, and you'd say yes, because this new model is clearly very capable of going way beyond humans in a domain that some of the most intelligent humans on the planet work. So it is a signal that AI is going to be increasingly good at things compared to the best humans in the space. And we've talked a lot about how specialists are the most vulnerable to AI, not generalists. The generalist would say, well, now that this is true, what do we do with it? And that's you.
Words and timings
Well,youcouldlookatitintwoways.Ithinkoneofthewaysis,asyoujustsaidit,andyou'dsayyes,becausethisnewmodelisclearlyverycapableofgoingwaybeyondhumansinadomainthatsomeofthemostintelligenthumansontheplanetwork.SoitisasignalthatAIisgoingtobeincreasinglygoodatthingscomparedtothebesthumansinthespace.Andwe'vetalkedalotabouthowspecialistsarethemostvulnerabletoAI,notgeneralists.Thegeneralistwouldsay,well,nowthatthisistrue,whatdowedowithit?Andthat'syou.
Speaker 3
And I mean, you're more of a specialist than me, but I'm the ultimate generalist.
Words and timings
AndImean,you'remoreofaspecialistthanme,butI'mtheultimategeneralist.
Speaker 2
Right. Well, that's where Dario probably failed this week, because his answer to that question was, don't release it. Even though if you released it, it could be used to patch all of those holes.
Words and timings
Right.Well,that'swhereDarioprobablyfailedthisweek,becausehisanswertothatquestionwas,don'treleaseit.Eventhoughifyoureleasedit,itcouldbeusedtopatchallofthoseholes.
Speaker 3
Sorry, I'm going to ask you a dumb question, Keith. I mean, most of my questions, as you know, are dumb. Why is this even news? If he had this product, Mythos AI, that supposedly is so dangerous and can destroy the world economy and all the rest of it, why not just keep it under wraps? Why even make it a story?
Words and timings
Sorry,I'mgoingtoaskyouadumbquestion,Keith.Imean,mostofmyquestions,asyouknow,aredumb.Whyisthisevennews?Ifhehadthisproduct,MythosAI,thatsupposedlyissodangerousandcandestroytheworldeconomyandalltherestofit,whynotjustkeepitunderwraps?Whyevenmakeitastory?
Speaker 2
Well, because he can't help himself. You know, if one wants to do the cult of personality, Dario is a little bit of a narcissist.
Words and timings
Well,becausehecan'thelphimself.Youknow,ifonewantstodothecultofpersonality,Darioisalittlebitofanarcissist.
Speaker 3
Oh, now you need to write a 15,000-word piece for the New Yorker on Dario, and then I could have an editorial hands-off Dario Amido.
Words and timings
Oh,nowyouneedtowritea15,000-wordpiecefortheNewYorkeronDario,andthenIcouldhaveaneditorialhands-offDarioAmido.
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. And he's self-interested in attention, clearly. And he wants his business to be valuable. He's announced his revenues this week for the, I think, third week in a row. He's clearly trying to grab attention.
Words and timings
Yeah,exactly.Andhe'sself-interestedinattention,clearly.Andhewantshisbusinesstobevaluable.He'sannouncedhisrevenuesthisweekforthe,Ithink,thirdweekinarow.He'sclearlytryingtograbattention.
Speaker 3
I mean, what is it? I don't really understand why you don't like him. And you seem to prefer Altman to Amidai.
Words and timings
Imean,whatisit?Idon'treallyunderstandwhyyoudon'tlikehim.AndyouseemtopreferAltmantoAmidai.
Speaker 2
Why? I think Altman's honest and Amadai is the devious one.
Words and timings
Why?IthinkAltman'shonestandAmadaiisthedeviousone.
Speaker 3
Well, Altman's honest because he's openly dishonest. Yes, he's very transparent. I think Amadai... Transparent in all the... The one thing I did like about the New Yorker piece was the imagery. It has Sam's many faces and that's true. I mean, everybody knows that There's a happy Sam, a salesman Sam. Well, there's always a salesman Sam, but a miserable Sam, a warning Sam, a manipulative Sam. And you're saying that Amadai is really Sam, except he's trying.
Words and timings
Well,Altman'shonestbecausehe'sopenlydishonest.Yes,he'sverytransparent.IthinkAmadai...Transparentinallthe...TheonethingIdidlikeabouttheNewYorkerpiecewastheimagery.IthasSam'smanyfacesandthat'strue.Imean,everybodyknowsthatThere'sahappySam,asalesmanSam.Well,there'salwaysasalesmanSam,butamiserableSam,awarningSam,amanipulativeSam.Andyou'resayingthatAmadaiisreallySam,excepthe'strying.
Speaker 2
He's got a different take. He's coming from a politically liberal canvas. You know, the narrative about doing good, a little bit like Google, do no evil. But that lives inside a commercial organization intent on making a lot of money. So there's a bit of a conflict of interest there. Whereas Altman is, you know, completely transparent. There's no guessing. And Amadai has succeeded in that narrative around himself, which is stunning to me, but probably because the zeitgeist wants to believe it.
Words and timings
He'sgotadifferenttake.He'scomingfromapoliticallyliberalcanvas.Youknow,thenarrativeaboutdoinggood,alittlebitlikeGoogle,donoevil.Butthatlivesinsideacommercialorganizationintentonmakingalotofmoney.Sothere'sabitofaconflictofinterestthere.WhereasAltmanis,youknow,completelytransparent.There'snoguessing.AndAmadaihassucceededinthatnarrativearoundhimself,whichisstunningtome,butprobablybecausethezeitgeistwantstobelieveit.
Speaker 3
Well, I'm just going into the trap that you're warning about in the editorial about personality-driven circus. Well, I could be. By turning Amidai into Altman, you're basically playing the same game as the New Yorker.
Words and timings
Well,I'mjustgoingintothetrapthatyou'rewarningaboutintheeditorialaboutpersonality-drivencircus.Well,Icouldbe.ByturningAmidaiintoAltman,you'rebasicallyplayingthesamegameastheNewYorker.
Speaker 2
I could be, but to my credit, this week's editorial is saying how awesome Anthropoc software is and how it should be embraced and implemented. And so whatever I think of Amidai personally, it doesn't extend to my views about Anthropic. And Anthropic, I believe, is fantastic, just like OpenAI is in its way as well. Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt.
Words and timings
Icouldbe,buttomycredit,thisweek'seditorialissayinghowawesomeAnthropocsoftwareisandhowitshouldbeembracedandimplemented.AndsowhateverIthinkofAmidaipersonally,itdoesn'textendtomyviewsaboutAnthropic.AndAnthropic,Ibelieve,isfantastic,justlikeOpenAIisinitswayaswell.Yeah,Imean,there'snodoubt.
Speaker 3
No one's going to argue that that's not the case. I wonder if there's a third way. Our interview of the week, my Keen on America interview of the week, is with Sebastian Malaby, who's just written a major new book about Demis Hassabis called The Infinity Machine. He told me He spent many hours in the top room of a Highgate pub talking to Demis. And Malaby, who's a very experienced, very distinguished journalist, written all sorts of books on venture capital, suggests that Demis is the model in the sense that he's trying to do good, but he's also managing the reality of the world. So on the one hand, he's well-versed in the ethics of Harg, Kant, and spinoza but on the other hand he recognizes that we don't live in a kantian world that he has to operate within google and within the world of ai so hasabist seems to to represent a much more mature version of either sam or dario doesn't he i mean i know you i'm not sure if you've you've had the chance to look at the interview But it's a really good interview because it focuses on this problem of personality cults. I mean, in a way, I guess, Sebastian has fallen into the cult by writing a book about Demis. But all these guys are struggling with historical realities that no single individual can actually deal with.
Words and timings
Noone'sgoingtoarguethatthat'snotthecase.Iwonderifthere'sathirdway.Ourinterviewoftheweek,myKeenonAmericainterviewoftheweek,iswithSebastianMalaby,who'sjustwrittenamajornewbookaboutDemisHassabiscalledTheInfinityMachine.HetoldmeHespentmanyhoursinthetoproomofaHighgatepubtalkingtoDemis.AndMalaby,who'saveryexperienced,verydistinguishedjournalist,writtenallsortsofbooksonventurecapital,suggeststhatDemisisthemodelinthesensethathe'stryingtodogood,buthe'salsomanagingtherealityoftheworld.Soontheonehand,he'swell-versedintheethicsofHarg,Kant,andspinozabutontheotherhandherecognizesthatwedon'tliveinakantianworldthathehastooperatewithingoogleandwithintheworldofaisohasabistseemstotorepresentamuchmorematureversionofeithersamordariodoesn'theimeaniknowyoui'mnotsureifyou'veyou'vehadthechancetolookattheinterviewButit'sareallygoodinterviewbecauseitfocusesonthisproblemofpersonalitycults.Imean,inaway,Iguess,SebastianhasfallenintothecultbywritingabookaboutDemis.Butalltheseguysarestrugglingwithhistoricalrealitiesthatnosingleindividualcanactuallydealwith.
Speaker 2
Yeah, Demis, I also saw an interview with him this week where he acknowledged that if he had his way, LLMs would not have been released to consumers or businesses, but would have largely stayed inside the laboratory doing things like AlphaFold, which is solving specific problems and taking time to do it. And So he's not really a believer in the distribution of AI to the world. He's more of a scientist who wants to apply it to specific problems. Yeah,
Words and timings
Yeah,Demis,Ialsosawaninterviewwithhimthisweekwhereheacknowledgedthatifhehadhisway,LLMswouldnothavebeenreleasedtoconsumersorbusinesses,butwouldhavelargelystayedinsidethelaboratorydoingthingslikeAlphaFold,whichissolvingspecificproblemsandtakingtimetodoit.AndSohe'snotreallyabelieverinthedistributionofAItotheworld.He'smoreofascientistwhowantstoapplyittospecificproblems.Yeah,
Speaker 3
and Sebastian said that in our conversation that Demis said to him lots of times in this conversation, sometimes I really just would much rather run a research institute at Princeton. I don't like all this corporate politics or all these corporate realities and compromises.
Words and timings
andSebastiansaidthatinourconversationthatDemissaidtohimlotsoftimesinthisconversation,sometimesIreallyjustwouldmuchratherrunaresearchinstituteatPrinceton.Idon'tlikeallthiscorporatepoliticsorallthesecorporaterealitiesandcompromises.
Speaker 2
Yeah, so that's probably a lot to do with him. That said, at Google, he was taken from DeepMind and made the boss not just of DeepMind, but of Gemini and all the other Google AI stuff. And that puts him in a position where he wears multiple hats. And one of them is to commercialize Gemini. So He's pushing out, this week they integrated Notebook LM in with Gemini. So now if you go to Gemini, there's a notebooks area and you could save files there and create projects and so on. So they're very much building a consumer-facing and business-facing set of tools from AI. And those things are starting to have an impact on everything, including... Yeah,
Words and timings
Yeah,sothat'sprobablyalottodowithhim.Thatsaid,atGoogle,hewastakenfromDeepMindandmadethebossnotjustofDeepMind,butofGeminiandalltheotherGoogleAIstuff.Andthatputshiminapositionwherehewearsmultiplehats.AndoneofthemistocommercializeGemini.SoHe'spushingout,thisweektheyintegratedNotebookLMinwithGemini.SonowifyougotoGemini,there'sanotebooksareaandyoucouldsavefilesthereandcreateprojectsandsoon.Sothey'reverymuchbuildingaconsumer-facingandbusiness-facingsetoftoolsfromAI.Andthosethingsarestartingtohaveanimpactoneverything,including...Yeah,
Speaker 3
and Sebastian also noted that Demis had a very close relationship with Sundar at Google and that explained his comfort because the history of DeepMind and Google is rocky and in the new book he also covers that early history when there are all sorts of rows about what Google could and couldn't do. It was another part of the conversation which was really interesting was how Demis wouldn't actually acknowledge it, but the reality is that he must have somehow authorized the firing of Mustafa Solomon, who went off now, who runs AI at Microsoft. So he does have to compromise, and he does have to operate in the real world. He has a CEO, and as you say, Google is increasingly an AI company.
Words and timings
andSebastianalsonotedthatDemishadaverycloserelationshipwithSundaratGoogleandthatexplainedhiscomfortbecausethehistoryofDeepMindandGoogleisrockyandinthenewbookhealsocoversthatearlyhistorywhenthereareallsortsofrowsaboutwhatGooglecouldandcouldn'tdo.ItwasanotherpartoftheconversationwhichwasreallyinterestingwashowDemiswouldn'tactuallyacknowledgeit,buttherealityisthathemusthavesomehowauthorizedthefiringofMustafaSolomon,whowentoffnow,whorunsAIatMicrosoft.Sohedoeshavetocompromise,andhedoeshavetooperateintherealworld.HehasaCEO,andasyousay,GoogleisincreasinglyanAIcompany.
Speaker 2
Yeah, but it's interesting, isn't it, that there's no narrative around Suleiman and him picked up by the media.
Words and timings
Yeah,butit'sinteresting,isn'tit,thatthere'snonarrativearoundSuleimanandhimpickedupbythemedia.
Speaker 3
I just picked up on it. Maybe I should write a 15,000-word piece for The New Yorker on that.
Words and timings
Ijustpickeduponit.MaybeIshouldwritea15,000-wordpieceforTheNewYorkeronthat.
Speaker 2
Yeah, because clearly there are Altman-like manoeuvres that must have gone on during that whole period that because he's... more of a scientist than a negotiator. He doesn't get tarred with that brush, whereas Altman does. But actually, in practice, they're both in startups, highly dynamic situations and contexts, having to make decisions probably several times a day where they don't really have the evidence to get it.
Words and timings
Yeah,becauseclearlythereareAltman-likemanoeuvresthatmusthavegoneonduringthatwholeperiodthatbecausehe's...moreofascientistthananegotiator.Hedoesn'tgettarredwiththatbrush,whereasAltmandoes.Butactually,inpractice,they'rebothinstartups,highlydynamicsituationsandcontexts,havingtomakedecisionsprobablyseveraltimesadaywheretheydon'treallyhavetheevidencetogetit.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and I thought Sebastian did a good job. The book has been criticized. There was a very, very hostile review in The Guardian. suggesting that Malaby had written a kind of hagiography, that he wasn't critical enough of Demis. But I think what Sebastian is acknowledging is that operating in the real world, you can't just read Kant or Spinoza and operate like that. We all know that. You can't. Business is tricky, dirty. I mean, it's Mike Tyson's famous remark. Everyone has a game plan until they get punched in the face.
Words and timings
Yeah,andIthoughtSebastiandidagoodjob.Thebookhasbeencriticized.Therewasavery,veryhostilereviewinTheGuardian.suggestingthatMalabyhadwrittenakindofhagiography,thathewasn'tcriticalenoughofDemis.ButIthinkwhatSebastianisacknowledgingisthatoperatingintherealworld,youcan'tjustreadKantorSpinozaandoperatelikethat.Weallknowthat.Youcan't.Businessistricky,dirty.Imean,it'sMikeTyson'sfamousremark.Everyonehasagameplanuntiltheygetpunchedintheface.
Speaker 2
Maybe for our listeners, Andrew, just explain what a Kantian world looks like in this context.
Words and timings
Maybeforourlisteners,Andrew,justexplainwhataKantianworldlookslikeinthiscontext.
Speaker 3
Well, this is a tech podcast rather than a philosophy one. I'm not an expert on Immanuel Kant, but he was, of course, the great philosopher of the uh enlightenment who suggested that you wrote a book i think called the ethical you talked about the ethic of pure reason which suggested that one could be good and reasonable at the same time and of course spinoza another of the fathers a dutch jewish philosopher uh suggested a similar thing and and maybe we need to credit them with good intent but the reality of the world isn't like that and one of the things i said to uh Malaby is that while Demis is reading Kant and Spinoza, or at least quoting Kant and Spinoza, he probably has also been, or hasn't been reading, but has borrowed the logic of Hobbes, the reality of the world, because that's just the nature of things.
Words and timings
Well,thisisatechpodcastratherthanaphilosophyone.I'mnotanexpertonImmanuelKant,buthewas,ofcourse,thegreatphilosopheroftheuhenlightenmentwhosuggestedthatyouwroteabookithinkcalledtheethicalyoutalkedabouttheethicofpurereasonwhichsuggestedthatonecouldbegoodandreasonableatthesametimeandofcoursespinozaanotherofthefathersadutchjewishphilosopheruhsuggestedasimilarthingandandmaybeweneedtocreditthemwithgoodintentbuttherealityoftheworldisn'tlikethatandoneofthethingsisaidtouhMalabyisthatwhileDemisisreadingKantandSpinoza,oratleastquotingKantandSpinoza,heprobablyhasalsobeen,orhasn'tbeenreading,buthasborrowedthelogicofHobbes,therealityoftheworld,becausethat'sjustthenatureofthings.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Look, the interesting thing is that those thinkers lived at a time of huge change. And they become increasingly relevant in our time because...
Words and timings
Yeah.Yeah.Look,theinterestingthingisthatthosethinkerslivedatatimeofhugechange.Andtheybecomeincreasinglyrelevantinourtimebecause...
Speaker 3
Relevant or irrelevant?
Words and timings
Relevantorirrelevant?
Speaker 2
Relevant. Because this is a time, in my lifetime at least, and I've seen a lot of change, where change is accelerated to the point where it's a daily occurrence. And you're having to adjust your worldview. you know, certainly every week. And, you know, new reality implies a new canvas for everybody.
Words and timings
Relevant.Becausethisisatime,inmylifetimeatleast,andI'veseenalotofchange,wherechangeisacceleratedtothepointwhereit'sadailyoccurrence.Andyou'rehavingtoadjustyourworldview.youknow,certainlyeveryweek.And,youknow,newrealityimpliesanewcanvasforeverybody.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, that's why Brian Merchant's book, Blood in the Machine, which was really about the early 19th century Luddite rebellion against industrial technology, is so relevant. And that's why you linked with his open season for refusing AI. In many ways, history is just repeating itself.
Words and timings
Yeah,Imean,that'swhyBrianMerchant'sbook,BloodintheMachine,whichwasreallyabouttheearly19thcenturyLudditerebellionagainstindustrialtechnology,issorelevant.Andthat'swhyyoulinkedwithhisopenseasonforrefusingAI.Inmanyways,historyisjustrepeatingitself.
Speaker 2
Yeah, but on a new level,
Words and timings
Yeah,butonanewlevel,
Speaker 2
it's interesting because the other thing that happened this week is the Artemis II mission, which by contrast seems a bit of a throwback to the 1960s and 70s.
Words and timings
it'sinterestingbecausetheotherthingthathappenedthisweekistheArtemisIImission,whichbycontrastseemsabitofathrowbacktothe1960sand70s.
Speaker 3
An attempt, I'm not sure. Take our minds off other stuff in the Middle East, perhaps.
Words and timings
Anattempt,I'mnotsure.TakeourmindsoffotherstuffintheMiddleEast,perhaps.
Speaker 2
Yeah, but it definitely doesn't seem to represent state of the art. at all, whereas this AI stuff definitely does. And the two are going to converge at some point where AI and rocketry and space travel is a single industry.
Words and timings
Yeah,butitdefinitelydoesn'tseemtorepresentstateoftheart.atall,whereasthisAIstuffdefinitelydoes.AndthetwoaregoingtoconvergeatsomepointwhereAIandrocketryandspacetravelisasingleindustry.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and a lot of my other shows this week are focused on this. I did a show with another New York Times writer, Noam Scheiber, who has a new book out called Mutiny, The Rise and Revolt of the College-Educated Working Class. and ease onto something. I mean, these people go to university and they spend $100,000 a year on being educated to acquire skills that are almost immediately redundant. I mean, that comes back to the Anthropic news this week. Every week, Anthropic comes out with a new release that makes a new generation of college-educated people redundant or irrelevant.
Words and timings
Yeah,andalotofmyothershowsthisweekarefocusedonthis.IdidashowwithanotherNewYorkTimeswriter,NoamScheiber,whohasanewbookoutcalledMutiny,TheRiseandRevoltoftheCollege-EducatedWorkingClass.andeaseontosomething.Imean,thesepeoplegotouniversityandtheyspend$100,000ayearonbeingeducatedtoacquireskillsthatarealmostimmediatelyredundant.Imean,thatcomesbacktotheAnthropicnewsthisweek.Everyweek,Anthropiccomesoutwithanewreleasethatmakesanewgenerationofcollege-educatedpeopleredundantorirrelevant.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, you know, the post of the week this week is a tweet I did myself. I've run these two websites. One's called seriouslyphotography.com. The other one is seriouslyvc.com on WordPress for more than 10 years. And what they do is they curate articles a bit like that was the week in their specific domains. And at the end of the week last week on a Friday around five in the afternoon, I suddenly thought, you know, these sites suck. I should upgrade them. And I got Anthropic to rewrite them, which he did very fast. And now the two sites, which still exist, are 100% created by code. It would have cost me tens of thousands of dollars to hire people to do that, and it would have taken a couple of months. And literally in 10 minutes, I had vastly improved websites that are much more responsive than they were before and got rid of WordPress, which has become a theme, by the way. Matt Mullenweg of WordPress did a big debate with Matthew Phillips of Cloudflare, who claims to have built a WordPress replacement a couple of weeks ago.
Words and timings
Yeah,Imean,youknow,thepostoftheweekthisweekisatweetIdidmyself.I'verunthesetwowebsites.One'scalledseriouslyphotography.com.Theotheroneisseriouslyvc.comonWordPressformorethan10years.Andwhattheydoistheycuratearticlesabitlikethatwastheweekintheirspecificdomains.AndattheendoftheweeklastweekonaFridayaroundfiveintheafternoon,Isuddenlythought,youknow,thesesitessuck.Ishouldupgradethem.AndIgotAnthropictorewritethem,whichhedidveryfast.Andnowthetwosites,whichstillexist,are100%createdbycode.Itwouldhavecostmetensofthousandsofdollarstohirepeopletodothat,anditwouldhavetakenacoupleofmonths.Andliterallyin10minutes,IhadvastlyimprovedwebsitesthataremuchmoreresponsivethantheywerebeforeandgotridofWordPress,whichhasbecomeatheme,bytheway.MattMullenwegofWordPressdidabigdebatewithMatthewPhillipsofCloudflare,whoclaimstohavebuiltaWordPressreplacementacoupleofweeksago.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and I did an interview this week. I mean, a lot of this stuff AI has become a kind of like the moral code, perhaps to borrow a word. A couple of your pieces is about everyone now is trying to argue that they're not using AI. So The Verge had a piece about, really, you made this without AI? Prove it. Of course you can't, although people will probably come up with software. which claim that they can figure out whether or not AI is part of it. Another Hollywood Reporter piece you write is, Hollywood assistants are using AI despite their better judgment. It's become the moral thing in itself. If you're using AI, supposedly, then you're a bad guy, which is just so childish and absurd to me.
Words and timings
Yeah,andIdidaninterviewthisweek.Imean,alotofthisstuffAIhasbecomeakindoflikethemoralcode,perhapstoborrowaword.Acoupleofyourpiecesisabouteveryonenowistryingtoarguethatthey'renotusingAI.SoTheVergehadapieceabout,really,youmadethiswithoutAI?Proveit.Ofcourseyoucan't,althoughpeoplewillprobablycomeupwithsoftware.whichclaimthattheycanfigureoutwhetherornotAIispartofit.AnotherHollywoodReporterpieceyouwriteis,HollywoodassistantsareusingAIdespitetheirbetterjudgment.It'sbecomethemoralthinginitself.Ifyou'reusingAI,supposedly,thenyou'reabadguy,whichisjustsochildishandabsurdtome.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. You know, we had friends from the UK visiting this week, and the husband is a teacher, a very good teacher. And I think his natural inclination is to suspect the students of using AI for bad purposes.
Words and timings
Yeah,yeah.Youknow,wehadfriendsfromtheUKvisitingthisweek,andthehusbandisateacher,averygoodteacher.AndIthinkhisnaturalinclinationistosuspectthestudentsofusingAIforbadpurposes.
Speaker 3
Understandably, in the sense that there's some truth to that, right?
Words and timings
Understandably,inthesensethatthere'ssometruthtothat,right?
Speaker 2
Yeah. And he's one of those teachers that actually reads students' essays and marks them properly. And I pointed out to him that probably in the not too distant future, he won't be teaching and he won't be marking. What he'll probably be doing, if he still has a job, is mentoring and teaching human beings how to be better at being themselves. And AI will take on many of the tasks that are repeatable, if you will, and where the value doesn't exist. The value really exists in the human connection.
Words and timings
Yeah.Andhe'soneofthoseteachersthatactuallyreadsstudents'essaysandmarksthemproperly.AndIpointedouttohimthatprobablyinthenottoodistantfuture,hewon'tbeteachingandhewon'tbemarking.Whathe'llprobablybedoing,ifhestillhasajob,ismentoringandteachinghumanbeingshowtobebetteratbeingthemselves.AndAIwilltakeonmanyofthetasksthatarerepeatable,ifyouwill,andwherethevaluedoesn'texist.Thevaluereallyexistsinthehumanconnection.
Speaker 3
Yeah, we are in violent disagreement, Keith, unfortunately, on this, which I know sometimes some of our viewers and listeners like it when we disagree, but I can't disagree with you on a lot of this stuff. One of the other shows that I recorded last week, which won't go out until next month, is with Eric Ries, who, of course, the author of The Lean Startup, very influential figure, lives now in the North Bay. he has a new book out called incorruptible uh why good companies go bad and how great companies stay great i i can't put the interview up until next week until next month because the book is out then but he i think you'd like the book and i think you'll enjoy the interview and we can discuss it uh next month when it goes live but he makes a structural argument that It's very much in your camp that worrying about these individuals is really beside the point because in Incorruptible, he suggests that good companies go bad and how great companies stay great have nothing to do with individuals. It has to do with their structure, their foundation. So I think it's an important argument to get us away from this personality-driven cult.
Words and timings
Yeah,weareinviolentdisagreement,Keith,unfortunately,onthis,whichIknowsometimessomeofourviewersandlistenerslikeitwhenwedisagree,butIcan'tdisagreewithyouonalotofthisstuff.OneoftheothershowsthatIrecordedlastweek,whichwon'tgooutuntilnextmonth,iswithEricRies,who,ofcourse,theauthorofTheLeanStartup,veryinfluentialfigure,livesnowintheNorthBay.hehasanewbookoutcalledincorruptibleuhwhygoodcompaniesgobadandhowgreatcompaniesstaygreatiican'tputtheinterviewupuntilnextweekuntilnextmonthbecausethebookisoutthenbutheithinkyou'dlikethebookandithinkyou'llenjoytheinterviewandwecandiscussituhnextmonthwhenitgoeslivebuthemakesastructuralargumentthatIt'sverymuchinyourcampthatworryingabouttheseindividualsisreallybesidethepointbecauseinIncorruptible,hesuggeststhatgoodcompaniesgobadandhowgreatcompaniesstaygreathavenothingtodowithindividuals.Ithastodowiththeirstructure,theirfoundation.SoIthinkit'sanimportantargumenttogetusawayfromthispersonality-drivencult.
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, look, most startups start with a mission, or some would call it a vision, like Google's Do No Evil or Microsoft.
Words and timings
Yeah,well,look,moststartupsstartwithamission,orsomewouldcallitavision,likeGoogle'sDoNoEvilorMicrosoft.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and of course, we talked about that in the conversation.
Words and timings
Yeah,andofcourse,wetalkedaboutthatintheconversation.
Speaker 2
Now, what happens, and Facebook's a great example of this. Facebook was really about getting to know people on your campus, possibly dating them was part of it. But it really, you know, there was no advertising business model like there was no advertising business model when Google first launched. And what happens is the commercial realities of turning that into a venture backed business with some implied returns for the investors. What happens is you bring in a team, you call someone like Ron Conway, who's one of your investors. He'll introduce you to a bunch of people who've been successful at commercializing other startups. They'll come in and form a team, people like Chamath Palihapitiya. And suddenly the modus operandi of the business becomes to make money and to do it as efficiently and tuned as possible. When that happens, the ethos of the business still exists somewhere in the background, but it isn't any longer the opportunity.
Words and timings
Now,whathappens,andFacebook'sagreatexampleofthis.Facebookwasreallyaboutgettingtoknowpeopleonyourcampus,possiblydatingthemwaspartofit.Butitreally,youknow,therewasnoadvertisingbusinessmodelliketherewasnoadvertisingbusinessmodelwhenGooglefirstlaunched.Andwhathappensisthecommercialrealitiesofturningthatintoaventurebackedbusinesswithsomeimpliedreturnsfortheinvestors.Whathappensisyoubringinateam,youcallsomeonelikeRonConway,who'soneofyourinvestors.He'llintroduceyoutoabunchofpeoplewho'vebeensuccessfulatcommercializingotherstartups.They'llcomeinandformateam,peoplelikeChamathPalihapitiya.Andsuddenlythemodusoperandiofthebusinessbecomestomakemoneyandtodoitasefficientlyandtunedaspossible.Whenthathappens,theethosofthebusinessstillexistssomewhereinthebackground,butitisn'tanylongertheopportunity.
Speaker 3
Yeah, but I'm not in agreement. I mean, are you suggesting then that all businesses... Because that's not what Rhys is arguing in Incorruptibles. He's suggesting that if you create the right kind of structural foundation of behaving decently, of not exploiting your customers, of creating a...
Words and timings
Yeah,butI'mnotinagreement.Imean,areyousuggestingthenthatallbusinesses...Becausethat'snotwhatRhysisarguinginIncorruptibles.He'ssuggestingthatifyoucreatetherightkindofstructuralfoundationofbehavingdecently,ofnotexploitingyourcustomers,ofcreatinga...
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Words and timings
Yeah.
Speaker 3
And these aren't Kantian companies. They're not companies that run on Spinozan principles. But at the same time, there is a difference between companies like Facebook,
Words and timings
Andthesearen'tKantiancompanies.They'renotcompaniesthatrunonSpinozanprinciples.Butatthesametime,thereisadifferencebetweencompanieslikeFacebook,
Speaker 2
which I think most of us would agree is profoundly immoral,
Words and timings
whichIthinkmostofuswouldagreeisprofoundlyimmoral,
Speaker 3
and other companies which are more accountable and responsible.
Words and timings
andothercompanieswhicharemoreaccountableandresponsible.
Speaker 2
Well, I think if you put the prism on that of business to business or enterprise companies versus consumer, I think you'll find that in consumer, it's fast-tracked being corrupted from your original vision, because the only way to monetize consumers is either subscription...
Words and timings
Well,Ithinkifyouputtheprismonthatofbusinesstobusinessorenterprisecompaniesversusconsumer,Ithinkyou'llfindthatinconsumer,it'sfast-trackedbeingcorruptedfromyouroriginalvision,becausetheonlywaytomonetizeconsumersiseithersubscription...
Speaker 3
No, but Reese, and again, I don't want to give away everything we talked about, but one of Reese's models is Patagonia. And in our conversation, he talked about a story where the CEO of Patagonia turned down deals which massively benefited Patagonia because he just thought they were bad. And Patagonia remains perhaps the model for an ethically run company. We all love their products. So it is possible to have decent consumer companies like Patagonia.
Words and timings
No,butReese,andagain,Idon'twanttogiveawayeverythingwetalkedabout,butoneofReese'smodelsisPatagonia.Andinourconversation,hetalkedaboutastorywheretheCEOofPatagoniaturneddowndealswhichmassivelybenefitedPatagoniabecausehejustthoughttheywerebad.AndPatagoniaremainsperhapsthemodelforanethicallyruncompany.Wealllovetheirproducts.SoitispossibletohavedecentconsumercompanieslikePatagonia.
Speaker 2
Yeah, you have to stick to your original vision and not allow anything to be executed that contradicts it, which is super hard to do. And that's why it's quite rare. But should we, I mean,
Words and timings
Yeah,youhavetosticktoyouroriginalvisionandnotallowanythingtobeexecutedthatcontradictsit,whichissuperhardtodo.Andthat'swhyit'squiterare.Butshouldwe,Imean,
Speaker 3
should we, is Reese right to make companies like Patagonia the model for 21st century companies, especially in Silicon Valley, where there's so much debate about this, where there's kind of both a concern, but also... misunderstanding of the anti-tech zeitgeist. I mean, you and I agree on it this week and the New Yorker piece, but some of it's justified. I mean, it's not just all some evil media conspiracy.
Words and timings
shouldwe,isReeserighttomakecompanieslikePatagoniathemodelfor21stcenturycompanies,especiallyinSiliconValley,wherethere'ssomuchdebateaboutthis,wherethere'skindofbothaconcern,butalso...misunderstandingoftheanti-techzeitgeist.Imean,youandIagreeonitthisweekandtheNewYorkerpiece,butsomeofit'sjustified.Imean,it'snotjustallsomeevilmediaconspiracy.
Speaker 2
Look, I don't know enough about Patagonia's operating, but I will guess that they do care about reducing costs and increasing margins. And so... there may be some constraints on like they probably wouldn't use child labor.
Words and timings
Look,Idon'tknowenoughaboutPatagonia'soperating,butIwillguessthattheydocareaboutreducingcostsandincreasingmargins.Andso...theremaybesomeconstraintsonliketheyprobablywouldn'tusechildlabor.
Speaker 3
To put it mildly, I mean, that goes without saying.
Words and timings
Toputitmildly,Imean,thatgoeswithoutsaying.
Speaker 2
But but possibly, you know, there's other things they're doing, like expecting wealthy consumers to pay much higher costs when they buy the stuff, therefore putting it out of reach of poor people just to make something up.
Words and timings
Butbutpossibly,youknow,there'sotherthingsthey'redoing,likeexpectingwealthyconsumerstopaymuchhighercostswhentheybuythestuff,thereforeputtingitoutofreachofpoorpeoplejusttomakesomethingup.
Speaker 3
although they also i mean we can maybe when when i run the reese piece we can talk about it they also encourage recycling so i i'm a wealthy patagonia owner but often you have these products they last for years and when the zipper breaks you send them back and they fix it for free so they're not just obsessed with selling stuff one of the other companies that came up which was interesting and maybe this
Words and timings
althoughtheyalsoimeanwecanmaybewhenwhenirunthereesepiecewecantalkaboutittheyalsoencouragerecyclingsoii'mawealthypatagoniaownerbutoftenyouhavetheseproductstheylastforyearsandwhenthezipperbreaksyousendthembackandtheyfixitforfreesothey'renotjustobsessedwithsellingstuffoneoftheothercompaniesthatcameupwhichwasinterestingandmaybethis
Speaker 3
fits back into our conversation about Sam and Silicon Valley and Anthropic and all the rest of it is another of the kinds of companies that Reese writes about in his new book are cooperatives like Mondragon, which is a very successful Spanish cooperative. Is it possible, given, Keith, you're a historian of the working class, old Marxist, that given... We're back in Luddite territory that will start thinking about cooperatives as alternative corporate structures to just straight capitalist companies.
Words and timings
fitsbackintoourconversationaboutSamandSiliconValleyandAnthropicandalltherestofitisanotherofthekindsofcompaniesthatReesewritesaboutinhisnewbookarecooperativeslikeMondragon,whichisaverysuccessfulSpanishcooperative.Isitpossible,given,Keith,you'reahistorianoftheworkingclass,oldMarxist,thatgiven...We'rebackinLudditeterritorythatwillstartthinkingaboutcooperativesasalternativecorporatestructurestojuststraightcapitalistcompanies.
Speaker 2
You know, I grew up with a co-op. There was a co-op in my council estate and they gave you a red book. And my mom every week on a Thursday would write a list of things she was buying. and you'd take it to the co-op. You'd get the food and stuff for free.
Words and timings
Youknow,Igrewupwithaco-op.Therewasaco-opinmycouncilestateandtheygaveyouaredbook.AndmymomeveryweekonaThursdaywouldwritealistofthingsshewasbuying.andyou'dtakeittotheco-op.You'dgetthefoodandstuffforfree.
Speaker 3
Well, after this was, of course, she read her gossipy magazine.
Words and timings
Well,afterthiswas,ofcourse,shereadhergossipymagazine.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Those would have been on the list. And they give you the stuff and then you have a co-op book with stamps in, which you got stamps every time you spent money. But you didn't pay the money there and then you paid it when payday happened. And so the co-op was pretty foundational to the way the whole community ran. But that was institutions trying to figure out how to work with people that didn't have cash flow. Today, debt and credit cards play the same role. And I would argue that, no, that isn't the future. The future is one where pure capitalism produces abundance. And there isn't the need to accommodate to poor people because there will be no poor people.
Words and timings
Exactly.Thosewouldhavebeenonthelist.Andtheygiveyouthestuffandthenyouhaveaco-opbookwithstampsin,whichyougotstampseverytimeyouspentmoney.Butyoudidn'tpaythemoneythereandthenyoupaiditwhenpaydayhappened.Andsotheco-opwasprettyfoundationaltothewaythewholecommunityran.Butthatwasinstitutionstryingtofigureouthowtoworkwithpeoplethatdidn'thavecashflow.Today,debtandcreditcardsplaythesamerole.AndIwouldarguethat,no,thatisn'tthefuture.Thefutureisonewherepurecapitalismproducesabundance.Andthereisn'ttheneedtoaccommodatetopoorpeoplebecausetherewillbenopoorpeople.
Speaker 3
And now you're edging into Elon territory. I think you and I will disagree on that one. But coming back to cooperatives, the whole point of a cooperative is not that you don't have to pay for the stuff at the end of the week. The whole point is it's a worker-owned. So another feature of the conversation with Reese is we talked about the difference between a store like Berkeley Bowl, and whole foods and why whole foods is the model for not how for how not to run companies so it could conceivably i mean i don't know how it works for anthropic and open ai i guess their owner their worker owned in a sense aren't they i mean
Words and timings
Andnowyou'reedgingintoElonterritory.IthinkyouandIwilldisagreeonthatone.Butcomingbacktocooperatives,thewholepointofacooperativeisnotthatyoudon'thavetopayforthestuffattheendoftheweek.Thewholepointisit'saworker-owned.SoanotherfeatureoftheconversationwithReeseiswetalkedaboutthedifferencebetweenastorelikeBerkeleyBowl,andwholefoodsandwhywholefoodsisthemodelfornothowforhownottoruncompaniessoitcouldconceivablyimeanidon'tknowhowitworksforanthropicandopenaiiguesstheirownertheirworkerownedinasensearen'ttheyimean
Speaker 2
everyone gets well yeah probably 20 of the company is owned by the employees um
Words and timings
everyonegetswellyeahprobably20ofthecompanyisownedbytheemployeesum
Speaker 3
well are they in a sense corporatism i mean this a lot of this stuff comes back to the the dilemma that Sam and everybody else at OpenAI wrestled with and continues to wrestle with about having a company that's both nonprofit and for profit within the same shell.
Words and timings
wellaretheyinasensecorporatismimeanthisalotofthisstuffcomesbacktothethedilemmathatSamandeverybodyelseatOpenAIwrestledwithandcontinuestowrestlewithabouthavingacompanythat'sbothnonprofitandforprofitwithinthesameshell.
Speaker 2
I think it's simpler than that. I mean, ultimately, there's math and the math says you've got to produce value. And if you produce value, you can distribute it. And so things like ownership are temporal concerns at a primitive stage of human development. In the future, there will probably be no ownership. Or to put it in the opposite, everything will be commonly owned.
Words and timings
Ithinkit'ssimplerthanthat.Imean,ultimately,there'smathandthemathsaysyou'vegottoproducevalue.Andifyouproducevalue,youcandistributeit.Andsothingslikeownershiparetemporalconcernsataprimitivestageofhumandevelopment.Inthefuture,therewillprobablybenoownership.Ortoputitintheopposite,everythingwillbecommonlyowned.
Speaker 3
Now you're sounding like Marx. What did you say? In the future, there'll be no ownership?
Words and timings
Nowyou'resoundinglikeMarx.Whatdidyousay?Inthefuture,there'llbenoownership?
Speaker 2
Or by saying the same thing in a different way, everything will be commonly owned. And that's because in abundance, the end of scarcity results in the end of self-interested competition.
Words and timings
Orbysayingthesamethinginadifferentway,everythingwillbecommonlyowned.Andthat'sbecauseinabundance,theendofscarcityresultsintheendofself-interestedcompetition.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, you've been reading too much marks here in the future. There'll be no ownership according to Keith. But I think one thing we can guarantee is next week, Keith, when we meet again, third week of April, there will remain ownership. Is that fair?
Words and timings
Yeah.Well,you'vebeenreadingtoomuchmarkshereinthefuture.There'llbenoownershipaccordingtoKeith.ButIthinkonethingwecanguaranteeisnextweek,Keith,whenwemeetagain,thirdweekofApril,therewillremainownership.Isthatfair?
Speaker 2
There will remain ownership. You will own, not NowTV, KeenOn, and I will own, that was the week, and Jeff3wCapital, who's commenting. You always bring in these bots. No, because they're here in Restream, it's showing them to me, and he's making the point that we should talk about Grokmo, because it's going to end up being the runaway winner. which I will say when I drive my Tesla, I'm constantly amazed by how good Grok is. So he's not wrong.
Words and timings
Therewillremainownership.Youwillown,notNowTV,KeenOn,andIwillown,thatwastheweek,andJeff3wCapital,who'scommenting.Youalwaysbringinthesebots.No,becausethey'rehereinRestream,it'sshowingthemtome,andhe'smakingthepointthatweshouldtalkaboutGrokmo,becauseit'sgoingtoendupbeingtherunawaywinner.whichIwillsaywhenIdrivemyTesla,I'mconstantlyamazedbyhowgoodGrokis.Sohe'snotwrong.
Speaker 3
Well, we will see. One thing is, there are two things for sure. There is a future and it will be next week. And we'll meet again next Saturday. And there will certainly be ownership next week. So as always, Keith, we were in too much agreement this week. Maybe next week we can disagree more. Thank you so much.
Words and timings
Well,wewillsee.Onethingis,therearetwothingsforsure.Thereisafutureanditwillbenextweek.Andwe'llmeetagainnextSaturday.Andtherewillcertainlybeownershipnextweek.Soasalways,Keith,wewereintoomuchagreementthisweek.Maybenextweekwecandisagreemore.Thankyousomuch.
Speaker 1
No.
Words and timings
No.