Speaker 3
I've got sunshine On a cloudy day When it's cold outside I've got the Monday morning Everybody sing! I guess
Words and timings
I'vegotsunshineOnacloudydayWhenit'scoldoutsideI'vegottheMondaymorningEverybodysing!Iguess
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The Elephant in the Room
Mar 2, 2024 ยท 2024 #9. Read the transcript grouped by speaker, inspect word-level timecodes, and optionally turn subtitles on for direct video playback
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The Elephant in the Room
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Speaker 3
hello everybody happy March it's Friday the 1st of March first Friday in March and if it's Friday it must be That Was The Week
Words and timings
helloeverybodyhappyMarchit'sFridaythe1stofMarchfirstFridayinMarchandifit'sFridayitmustbeThatWasTheWeek
Speaker 2
our weekly summary of tech news with my friend Keith Teare and this week according to Keith at least there's an elephant in the room and this elephant and his and I don't know why he keeps on insisting on having dreadful AI art but he is and as always we're talking about AI so it's both the media and the message or the medium and the message in our conversation we have an image of a elephant in front or in Google's office I'm not sure Keith how many elephants will see this but I hope you're not offending the elephant species this elephant looks typically like an elephant although I'm sure from an elephant perspective there's something about it that will offend what elephant is in the room this week Keith?
Words and timings
ourweeklysummaryoftechnewswithmyfriendKeithTeareandthisweekaccordingtoKeithatleastthere'sanelephantintheroomandthiselephantandhisandIdon'tknowwhyhekeepsoninsistingonhavingdreadfulAIartbutheisandasalwayswe'retalkingaboutAIsoit'sboththemediaandthemessageorthemediumandthemessageinourconversationwehaveanimageofaelephantinfrontorinGoogle'sofficeI'mnotsureKeithhowmanyelephantswillseethisbutIhopeyou'renotoffendingtheelephantspeciesthiselephantlookstypicallylikeanelephantalthoughI'msurefromanelephantperspectivethere'ssomethingaboutitthatwilloffendwhatelephantisintheroomthisweekKeith?
Speaker 1
So this relates to some essays in the three essays in this week's newsletter one by Noah Smith and then two others that talk about Google's experience with Gemini, where it created images of historical subjects that were diverse, let's say. That is to say, it made people black who would not have been black in the real world. And it was such an extreme... What do you mean it made people black that weren't black in the real world?
Words and timings
Sothisrelatestosomeessaysinthethreeessaysinthisweek'snewsletteronebyNoahSmithandthentwoothersthattalkaboutGoogle'sexperiencewithGemini,whereitcreatedimagesofhistoricalsubjectsthatwerediverse,let'ssay.Thatistosay,itmadepeopleblackwhowouldnothavebeenblackintherealworld.Anditwassuchanextreme...Whatdoyoumeanitmadepeopleblackthatweren'tblackintherealworld?
Speaker 2
You mean like... Like the Founding Fathers, for example. Or making Nazi soldiers black. but that was one the other was the Google Founders it was asked who the Google Founders were yeah but I think they're spiritually Asian the Google Founders I shouldn't say that I'll get thrown off the air yeah the Google Founders now have come across as Asian which will thrill I'm sure our Asian viewers maybe not our Jewish ones so what's going on here we are treading into the culture wars for not the first or the last time you and I have talked about this what's gone wrong
Words and timings
Youmeanlike...LiketheFoundingFathers,forexample.OrmakingNazisoldiersblack.butthatwasonetheotherwastheGoogleFoundersitwasaskedwhotheGoogleFounderswereyeahbutIthinkthey'respirituallyAsiantheGoogleFoundersIshouldn'tsaythatI'llgetthrownofftheairyeahtheGoogleFoundersnowhavecomeacrossasAsianwhichwillthrillI'msureourAsianviewersmaybenotourJewishonessowhat'sgoingonherewearetreadingintotheculturewarsfornotthefirstorthelasttimeyouandIhavetalkedaboutthiswhat'sgonewrong
Speaker 1
well what this week is the week of reflection the news about this was last week but this week there's a lot of reflection including uh sundar the ceo saying it was unacceptable and it's not clear what he's going to do but he's promising to do something is sundar black keith how do they represent how does gemini represent the ceo of google as a nazi female asian soldier probably yeah probably but it isn't it amazing that The strength of the diversity, inclusion and equity movement leads to Google engineers artificially programming their AI to be on the leading edge of representation.
Words and timings
wellwhatthisweekistheweekofreflectionthenewsaboutthiswaslastweekbutthisweekthere'salotofreflectionincludinguhsundartheceosayingitwasunacceptableandit'snotclearwhathe'sgoingtodobuthe'spromisingtodosomethingissundarblackkeithhowdotheyrepresenthowdoesgeminirepresenttheceoofgoogleasanazifemaleasiansoldierprobablyyeahprobablybutitisn'titamazingthatThestrengthofthediversity,inclusionandequitymovementleadstoGoogleengineersartificiallyprogrammingtheirAItobeontheleadingedgeofrepresentation.
Speaker 2
That's the conservative view. You didn't include Andrew Sullivan's piece this week, which he's, as always, frothing at the mouth over the DEI thing. To be fair, not all the essays, you talk about three essays this week, a couple, one by Noah Smith, the Ben Thompson strategy one who you've often referred to, and also Alex Kantrowitz. I mean they don't all agree Kantrowitz in particular that this is about DEI do they I mean it's the easy that's the that's in my view at least the lazy interpretation well
Words and timings
That'stheconservativeview.Youdidn'tincludeAndrewSullivan'spiecethisweek,whichhe's,asalways,frothingatthemouthovertheDEIthing.Tobefair,notalltheessays,youtalkaboutthreeessaysthisweek,acouple,onebyNoahSmith,theBenThompsonstrategyonewhoyou'veoftenreferredto,andalsoAlexKantrowitz.Imeantheydon'tallagreeKantrowitzinparticularthatthisisaboutDEIdotheyImeanit'stheeasythat'sthethat'sinmyviewatleastthelazyinterpretationwell
Speaker 1
It isn't not about DEI either. That's the interesting thing. There's some nuance here. Maybe we can tease out the nuance.
Words and timings
Itisn'tnotaboutDEIeither.That'stheinterestingthing.There'ssomenuancehere.Maybewecanteaseoutthenuance.
Speaker 2
Well, maybe you can talk about what the Smith, the Kantrowitz, and the Thompson pieces all argue.
Words and timings
Well,maybeyoucantalkaboutwhattheSmith,theKantrowitz,andtheThompsonpiecesallargue.
Speaker 1
Yeah, so the Noah Opinion piece, This Is Not a Good Way to Fight Racism, is the lengthiest and I think very thoughtful, acknowledging that acknowledging racism first, acknowledging oppression, acknowledging that there is a problem and then... What do you mean acknowledging oppression?
Words and timings
Yeah,sotheNoahOpinionpiece,ThisIsNotaGoodWaytoFightRacism,isthelengthiestandIthinkverythoughtful,acknowledgingthatacknowledgingracismfirst,acknowledgingoppression,acknowledgingthatthereisaproblemandthen...Whatdoyoumeanacknowledgingoppression?
Speaker 2
What does that mean?
Words and timings
Whatdoesthatmean?
Speaker 1
Well, acknowledging that the black experience is not equal to the white experience even in 2024 in terms of opportunity and that therefore there is such a thing as structural racism or systemic racism.
Words and timings
Well,acknowledgingthattheblackexperienceisnotequaltothewhiteexperienceevenin2024intermsofopportunityandthatthereforethereissuchathingasstructuralracismorsystemicracism.
Speaker 2
and so he's not Do you have to I mean because you do a little bit of this Keith I'm usually gentle with you but maybe I'll be less gentle I mean why is it that anytime anyone ever discusses this they have to do virtue signalling to somehow say and you do it in your editorial well I'm not a racist I did blah blah blah in my life and therefore I have a right to talk about it why do people have to say that?
Words and timings
andsohe'snotDoyouhavetoImeanbecauseyoudoalittlebitofthisKeithI'musuallygentlewithyoubutmaybeI'llbelessgentleImeanwhyisitthatanytimeanyoneeverdiscussesthistheyhavetodovirtuesignallingtosomehowsayandyoudoitinyoureditorialwellI'mnotaracistIdidblahblahblahinmylifeandthereforeIhavearighttotalkaboutitwhydopeoplehavetosaythat?
Speaker 1
Because racism's a real thing and if you haven't done anything shame on you I haven't. I seem to recall at some point that you are, I don't know, I don't want to talk about your personal life, but there is lots of evidence that you are not a racist.
Words and timings
Becauseracism'sarealthingandifyouhaven'tdoneanythingshameonyouIhaven't.Iseemtorecallatsomepointthatyouare,Idon'tknow,Idon'twanttotalkaboutyourpersonallife,butthereislotsofevidencethatyouarenotaracist.
Speaker 2
um but the point is is that but being a racist why does anyone who have to whenever we have to talk about this they have to and you're not alone and as you say Smith does it that you have to virtual signal by saying well I'm not a racist I I acknowledge blah blah blah and therefore I have a right to talk about it
Words and timings
umbutthepointisisthatbutbeingaracistwhydoesanyonewhohavetowheneverwehavetotalkaboutthistheyhavetoandyou'renotaloneandasyousaySmithdoesitthatyouhavetovirtualsignalbysayingwellI'mnotaracistIIacknowledgeblahblahblahandthereforeIhavearighttotalkaboutit
Speaker 1
I don't think it's because you have the right. I think you want the world to know that you're not a white supremacist.
Words and timings
Idon'tthinkit'sbecauseyouhavetheright.Ithinkyouwanttheworldtoknowthatyou'renotawhitesupremacist.
Speaker 2
Who is it?
Words and timings
Whoisit?
Speaker 1
Well, I think you understand why. No, I don't. I'm really serious. Then I'll explain it to you. The narrative around race has got to the point where it's very similar to the Palestine-Israeli narrative where there's no middle ground. it is assumed that you're either one thing or the other. And therefore, unless you kowtow to those who want to know that you're anti-racist, you don't even get into the conversation.
Words and timings
Well,Ithinkyouunderstandwhy.No,Idon't.I'mreallyserious.ThenI'llexplainittoyou.Thenarrativearoundracehasgottothepointwhereit'sverysimilartothePalestine-Israelinarrativewherethere'snomiddleground.itisassumedthatyou'reeitheronethingortheother.Andtherefore,unlessyoukowtowtothosewhowanttoknowthatyou'reanti-racist,youdon'tevengetintotheconversation.
Speaker 2
You're immediately- So you're saying that, let's leave the Arab-Israeli thing out, because that's just another elephant in the room, the second elephant in the room. Maybe we'll deal with that next week. The Jewish and Arab Elephant, the Muslim and Jewish elephant. But can you have a Jewish elephant, Keith?
Words and timings
You'reimmediately-Soyou'resayingthat,let'sleavetheArab-Israelithingout,becausethat'sjustanotherelephantintheroom,thesecondelephantintheroom.Maybewe'lldealwiththatnextweek.TheJewishandArabElephant,theMuslimandJewishelephant.ButcanyouhaveaJewishelephant,Keith?
Speaker 1
Why not? It's probably got a circumcised trunk. That's the only difference. Now you're getting that into trouble.
Words and timings
Whynot?It'sprobablygotacircumcisedtrunk.That'stheonlydifference.Nowyou'regettingthatintotrouble.
Speaker 2
In all seriousness, are you saying that when it comes to race, either you have to prove that you're an anti-racist or you're a white, or for that matter, I guess, black supremacist? There's nothing in between?
Words and timings
Inallseriousness,areyousayingthatwhenitcomestorace,eitheryouhavetoprovethatyou'reananti-racistoryou'reawhite,orforthatmatter,Iguess,blacksupremacist?There'snothinginbetween?
Speaker 1
I think the narrative or the discussion has degenerated to the point where I think it's driven by identity politics myself but there is a fear of expressing hostility to a specific tactic in anti-racism because you are absolutely certain that you'll be depicted as a racist or at least contributing to racism. And that's the polarization of the debate. And that's real, it is very real.
Words and timings
IthinkthenarrativeorthediscussionhasdegeneratedtothepointwhereIthinkit'sdrivenbyidentitypoliticsmyselfbutthereisafearofexpressinghostilitytoaspecifictacticinanti-racismbecauseyouareabsolutelycertainthatyou'llbedepictedasaracistoratleastcontributingtoracism.Andthat'sthepolarizationofthedebate.Andthat'sreal,itisveryreal.
Speaker 2
Shouldn't we, you and I at least as adults, Avoid that and simply say, well, I don't have to prove my anti-racist credentials by being able to talk about this.
Words and timings
Shouldn'twe,youandIatleastasadults,Avoidthatandsimplysay,well,Idon'thavetoprovemyanti-racistcredentialsbybeingabletotalkaboutthis.
Speaker 1
I agree with you and I by the way I don't think I ever do that but I do in this essay because well what I did is said is said I'm an anti-racist and and you know shared some of my history not in order to buy myself space but just to make the statement yes there is racism and and what I wanted to do then is leverage that platform to be able to say um but what Google did isn't fighting it What Google did actually may be making it worse.
Words and timings
IagreewithyouandIbythewayIdon'tthinkIeverdothatbutIdointhisessaybecausewellwhatIdidissaidissaidI'mananti-racistandandyouknowsharedsomeofmyhistorynotinordertobuymyselfspacebutjusttomakethestatementyesthereisracismandandwhatIwantedtodothenisleveragethatplatformtobeabletosayumbutwhatGoogledidisn'tfightingitWhatGoogledidactuallymaybemakingitworse.
Speaker 2
So what's going on here? So the Google Gemini AI algorithm put its big elephant foot in what way? What did it do wrong? And why is this creating another round of these culture wars?
Words and timings
Sowhat'sgoingonhere?SotheGoogleGeminiAIalgorithmputitsbigelephantfootinwhatway?Whatdiditdowrong?Andwhyisthiscreatinganotherroundoftheseculturewars?
Speaker 1
Well, we can have opinions about that. My opinion is that it amplified a view the the right way to fight racism is at the level of appearance that is to say that you um and this this can take the form of hiring someone for a job that is black but not as good as a white candidate you passed over that racism is about appearance it's skin color so i guess that's yeah but but actually i think there's a deeper issue there which is is the problem racists or is the problem racism? And racist and racism to me are not the same thing. A racist is an individual and it's someone making decisions from a perspective of racism. A racist is an individual, and there's a strong imperative to challenge individuals, but actually, whether it's a producer casting for a movie or a theater director casting for a play or editing a book to remove various references, that level of dealing with race The Expression of Racism does absolutely nothing to get rid of racism because racism is not to do with the consequences. The consequences are how individuals speak, think, and act. But the cause is much deeper than that. And what happens is, let's say Google would have gotten away with this. Gotten away with what? With making Nazis black for diversity reasons. for example. Let's say Google, no one had noticed or everyone was okay with it. It wouldn't change the life expectancy of a black kid in East Palo Alto in an elementary school where he doesn't have money for school meals and his teachers suck. The Causes of Racism Are Much Deeper Than the Appearances Okay, well, let's talk specifically about this Google thing.
Words and timings
Well,wecanhaveopinionsaboutthat.Myopinionisthatitamplifiedaviewthetherightwaytofightracismisatthelevelofappearancethatistosaythatyouumandthisthiscantaketheformofhiringsomeoneforajobthatisblackbutnotasgoodasawhitecandidateyoupassedoverthatracismisaboutappearanceit'sskincolorsoiguessthat'syeahbutbutactuallyithinkthere'sadeeperissuetherewhichisistheproblemracistsoristheproblemracism?Andracistandracismtomearenotthesamething.Aracistisanindividualandit'ssomeonemakingdecisionsfromaperspectiveofracism.Aracistisanindividual,andthere'sastrongimperativetochallengeindividuals,butactually,whetherit'saproducercastingforamovieoratheaterdirectorcastingforaplayoreditingabooktoremovevariousreferences,thatlevelofdealingwithraceTheExpressionofRacismdoesabsolutelynothingtogetridofracismbecauseracismisnottodowiththeconsequences.Theconsequencesarehowindividualsspeak,think,andact.Butthecauseismuchdeeperthanthat.Andwhathappensis,let'ssayGooglewouldhavegottenawaywiththis.Gottenawaywithwhat?WithmakingNazisblackfordiversityreasons.forexample.Let'ssayGoogle,noonehadnoticedoreveryonewasokaywithit.Itwouldn'tchangethelifeexpectancyofablackkidinEastPaloAltoinanelementaryschoolwherehedoesn'thavemoneyforschoolmealsandhisteacherssuck.TheCausesofRacismAreMuchDeeperThantheAppearancesOkay,well,let'stalkspecificallyaboutthisGooglething.
Speaker 2
There was an interesting piece that Sullivan connected with about suggesting that Google has changed. Initially, the search engine was designed to be objective, whatever that means. And now this Gemini has been designed to correct social injustice. Is that what Smith and Thompson and Kantrowitz are saying?
Words and timings
TherewasaninterestingpiecethatSullivanconnectedwithaboutsuggestingthatGooglehaschanged.Initially,thesearchenginewasdesignedtobeobjective,whateverthatmeans.AndnowthisGeminihasbeendesignedtocorrectsocialinjustice.IsthatwhatSmithandThompsonandKantrowitzaresaying?
Speaker 1
That's part of what they all say. They all have their different angles, but that, yeah, that is part of what they're all, each one of them says that. One of them suggests that Google culture has been taken over, which I think is unfair because all culture has been taken over by this point of view. Google's just an example of normal life. It's not especially different to any other culture. Culture has become um if you like a censor of the truth by insisting that the version of the truth that's told is is a particular version so there's elephants in all our rooms Keith not just Google yeah it's a societal it's a stage of society where ideology and narrative
Words and timings
That'spartofwhattheyallsay.Theyallhavetheirdifferentangles,butthat,yeah,thatispartofwhatthey'reall,eachoneofthemsaysthat.OneofthemsuggeststhatGoogleculturehasbeentakenover,whichIthinkisunfairbecauseallculturehasbeentakenoverbythispointofview.Google'sjustanexampleofnormallife.It'snotespeciallydifferenttoanyotherculture.Culturehasbecomeumifyoulikeacensorofthetruthbyinsistingthattheversionofthetruththat'stoldisisaparticularversionsothere'selephantsinallourroomsKeithnotjustGoogleyeahit'sasocietalit'sastageofsocietywhereideologyandnarrative
Speaker 1
at the level of abstraction at which things are sought to be corrected rather than in society itself.
Words and timings
atthelevelofabstractionatwhichthingsaresoughttobecorrectedratherthaninsocietyitself.
Speaker 2
So what Google's doing then, according to a lot of critics, is using this Gemini AI feature to always represent people of different skin colors, which explains why you get black female or Asian female black male Nazi soldiers there's no what historical context the algorithm doesn't understand that you shouldn't do that with SS members of the SS well they programmed an override which took the form of no matter what you prompt if it's asking for visuals of people it added onto the end hidden from view and please make this diverse
Words and timings
SowhatGoogle'sdoingthen,accordingtoalotofcritics,isusingthisGeminiAIfeaturetoalwaysrepresentpeopleofdifferentskincolors,whichexplainswhyyougetblackfemaleorAsianfemaleblackmaleNazisoldiersthere'snowhathistoricalcontextthealgorithmdoesn'tunderstandthatyoushouldn'tdothatwithSSmembersoftheSSwelltheyprogrammedanoverridewhichtooktheformofnomatterwhatyoupromptifit'saskingforvisualsofpeopleitaddedontotheendhiddenfromviewandpleasemakethisdiverse
Speaker 1
so whether you're asking for Nazis or Google founders or the founding fathers it added invisible to you and please make the answer diverse and was it serious yeah so this wasn't a comic feature no it was a safety they call it safety the word safety now means
Words and timings
sowhetheryou'reaskingforNazisorGooglefoundersorthefoundingfathersitaddedinvisibletoyouandpleasemaketheanswerdiverseandwasitseriousyeahsothiswasn'tacomicfeaturenoitwasasafetytheycallitsafetythewordsafetynowmeans
Speaker 2
you know something other than safety that what's the opposite of safety Keith danger yeah so this is this is this is dangerous stuff I mean they they they got themselves in huge trouble the the the markets responded negatively they lost billions of dollars in value because so who's to blame here
Words and timings
youknowsomethingotherthansafetythatwhat'stheoppositeofsafetyKeithdangeryeahsothisisthisisthisisdangerousstuffImeantheytheytheygotthemselvesinhugetroublethethethemarketsrespondednegativelytheylostbillionsofdollarsinvaluebecausesowho'stoblamehere
Speaker 1
I don't you know of course there are individuals who did that programming and some product manager told them to do it so there will be an answer to that I don't know the actual answer but I would say that those individuals are just playing out what is now normal in every university campus in every publishing house apart from contrarians that... Like you and I. Yeah. So I think it's symptomatic of something not to do with Google.
Words and timings
Idon'tyouknowofcoursethereareindividualswhodidthatprogrammingandsomeproductmanagertoldthemtodoitsotherewillbeananswertothatIdon'tknowtheactualanswerbutIwouldsaythatthoseindividualsarejustplayingoutwhatisnownormalineveryuniversitycampusineverypublishinghouseapartfromcontrariansthat...LikeyouandI.Yeah.SoIthinkit'ssymptomaticofsomethingnottodowithGoogle.
Speaker 2
So that's one interpretation which Smith, I think as you say, you've got three essays, one by Noah Smith, one by Ben Thompson, and one by Alex Kantrowitz.
Words and timings
Sothat'soneinterpretationwhichSmith,Ithinkasyousay,you'vegotthreeessays,onebyNoahSmith,onebyBenThompson,andonebyAlexKantrowitz.
Speaker 1
Ben Thompson, by the way, calls for Satya to be fired.
Words and timings
BenThompson,bytheway,callsforSatyatobefired.
Speaker 2
right which I was probably not the first or the last I think Smith takes the cultural view Thompson is makes it clear that he's not really a strong political writer and but there is some politics here whereas Kantrowitz takes a counter view and sees it as a product of Google corporate culture what does country and I I have to admit I'm much more sympathetic to the the Kantrowitz reading that It's just a fucked up company. It grew too fast. It's bureaucratic, bad leadership, and it really doesn't fit into the Andrew Sullivan argument that the world is going to hell because of DEI.
Words and timings
rightwhichIwasprobablynotthefirstorthelastIthinkSmithtakestheculturalviewThompsonismakesitclearthathe'snotreallyastrongpoliticalwriterandbutthereissomepoliticsherewhereasKantrowitztakesacounterviewandseesitasaproductofGooglecorporateculturewhatdoescountryandIIhavetoadmitI'mmuchmoresympathetictothetheKantrowitzreadingthatIt'sjustafuckedupcompany.Itgrewtoofast.It'sbureaucratic,badleadership,anditreallydoesn'tfitintotheAndrewSullivanargumentthattheworldisgoingtohellbecauseofDEI.
Speaker 1
I think both things can be true, but I also agree with you. I made the subtitle of this week's newsletter, Big Tech and the Fear of Controversy. and I think if you wanted to characterize Google's culture it's a fear of screwing up more than the bravery to test new things and I think it expresses that it's like let's not get into trouble here because if you remember both Microsoft and Google have had prior experiences with AI of the AI becoming racist
Words and timings
Ithinkboththingscanbetrue,butIalsoagreewithyou.Imadethesubtitleofthisweek'snewsletter,BigTechandtheFearofControversy.andIthinkifyouwantedtocharacterizeGoogle'scultureit'safearofscrewingupmorethanthebraverytotestnewthingsandIthinkitexpressesthatit'slikelet'snotgetintotroubleherebecauseifyourememberbothMicrosoftandGooglehavehadpriorexperienceswithAIoftheAIbecomingracist
Speaker 2
so this if if anything is a kind of a this wouldn't happen i mean it's easy to say but it's hard to imagine this would happen at amazon or apple or even microsoft so there's something about google that distinguishes it from other big tech companies surprisingly part of it is shipping too early um they're in a competition with open ai
Words and timings
sothisififanythingisakindofathiswouldn'thappenimeanit'seasytosaybutit'shardtoimaginethiswouldhappenatamazonorappleorevenmicrosoftsothere'ssomethingaboutgooglethatdistinguishesitfromotherbigtechcompaniessurprisinglypartofitisshippingtooearlyumthey'reinacompetitionwithopenai
Speaker 1
and that is compelling them to ship early so that they're in the race so it's possible the oversight here was less than perfect but didn't someone play with it i mean surely even the the ceo has a computer he can actually try it out
Words and timings
andthatiscompellingthemtoshipearlysothatthey'reintheracesoit'spossibletheoversightherewaslessthanperfectbutdidn'tsomeoneplaywithitimeansurelyeventhetheceohasacomputerhecanactuallytryitout
Speaker 2
yeah but probably what they did is test it to see if it's racist and it would have passed that test probably that's an I think that's an extreme so who's testing at the CEO you mean he he's less interest he's only interested in whether or not it's racist he's Indian by the way he is Indian
Words and timings
yeahbutprobablywhattheydidistestittoseeifit'sracistanditwouldhavepassedthattestprobablythat'sanIthinkthat'sanextremesowho'stestingattheCEOyoumeanhehe'slessinteresthe'sonlyinterestedinwhetherornotit'sracisthe'sIndianbythewayheisIndian
Speaker 1
let's admit that we're guessing what happened there because we don't really know but there will have been some level of testing but it won't have been I mean why would you test whether Nazis could be black he wouldn't be occurred to you to even test that would it because it's so weird well it's weird but you'd think someone at Google would have actually played around with it and tested it I mean maybe not that particular Nazi thing but
Words and timings
let'sadmitthatwe'reguessingwhathappenedtherebecausewedon'treallyknowbuttherewillhavebeensomeleveloftestingbutitwon'thavebeenImeanwhywouldyoutestwhetherNaziscouldbeblackhewouldn'tbeoccurredtoyoutoeventestthatwoulditbecauseit'ssoweirdwellit'sweirdbutyou'dthinksomeoneatGooglewouldhaveactuallyplayedaroundwithitandtesteditImeanmaybenotthatparticularNazithingbut
Speaker 2
some of the other stuff that everyone, I mean, it's open season on Google because this first version of Gemini on one level at least is so bad, so absurd.
Words and timings
someoftheotherstuffthateveryone,Imean,it'sopenseasononGooglebecausethisfirstversionofGeminiononelevelatleastissobad,soabsurd.
Speaker 1
Yeah, Joe Lonsdale was at a conference yesterday in LA, the Upfront Ventures Conference, and he was a panelist and he made the point that this is simply the price you pay for woke culture. I didn't use that word anyway. I don't like the word woke actually, but it's the price you pay when you
Words and timings
Yeah,JoeLonsdalewasataconferenceyesterdayinLA,theUpfrontVenturesConference,andhewasapanelistandhemadethepointthatthisissimplythepriceyoupayforwokeculture.Ididn'tusethatwordanyway.Idon'tlikethewordwokeactually,butit'sthepriceyoupaywhenyou
Speaker 2
you're mainly driven by politics and influence instead of logic and facts but that's that that's the smith take i mean what would kantrowitz say kantrowitz would simply say it's a badly run company it grew too fast morale is plummeting everybody wants to leave that happened at microsoft It will eventually happen probably at Apple and Amazon. That's just the nature of corporate ups and downs. It's not part of this whole woke DEI narrative.
Words and timings
you'remainlydrivenbypoliticsandinfluenceinsteadoflogicandfactsbutthat'sthatthat'sthesmithtakeimeanwhatwouldkantrowitzsaykantrowitzwouldsimplysayit'sabadlyruncompanyitgrewtoofastmoraleisplummetingeverybodywantstoleavethathappenedatmicrosoftItwilleventuallyhappenprobablyatAppleandAmazon.That'sjustthenatureofcorporateupsanddowns.It'snotpartofthiswholewokeDEInarrative.
Speaker 1
Well, his key quote is, at Google, it's impossible to navigate and understand who owns things. That's the Google trust and safety team. Maybe that's by design so that nobody can ever get in trouble for failure, is what they said. Fear and Hiding from Accountability is what he brings together.
Words and timings
Well,hiskeyquoteis,atGoogle,it'simpossibletonavigateandunderstandwhoownsthings.That'stheGoogletrustandsafetyteam.Maybethat'sbydesignsothatnobodycanevergetintroubleforfailure,iswhattheysaid.FearandHidingfromAccountabilityiswhathebringstogether.
Speaker 2
What else does it tell us, Keith? You and I have talked about this endlessly. Another of the headlines today is about the Supreme Court case last week about whether or not Texas and Florida should be able to determine what you do and don't see on social media. How much of this is bound up in all of our, and this may be the real elephant in the room, our unwillingness to acknowledge that whatever you see on your media, someone is determining what you see. But better or worse, You know, the right always claims it's the left, the left always claims it's the right, women always claim it's men, men always claim it's women, blacks always claim it's whites, whites always claim it's black, but somebody is determining what you see, right?
Words and timings
Whatelsedoesittellus,Keith?YouandIhavetalkedaboutthisendlessly.AnotheroftheheadlinestodayisabouttheSupremeCourtcaselastweekaboutwhetherornotTexasandFloridashouldbeabletodeterminewhatyoudoanddon'tseeonsocialmedia.Howmuchofthisisboundupinallofour,andthismaybetherealelephantintheroom,ourunwillingnesstoacknowledgethatwhateveryouseeonyourmedia,someoneisdeterminingwhatyousee.Butbetterorworse,Youknow,therightalwaysclaimsit'stheleft,theleftalwaysclaimsit'stheright,womenalwaysclaimit'smen,menalwaysclaimit'swomen,blacksalwaysclaimit'swhites,whitesalwaysclaimit'sblack,butsomebodyisdeterminingwhatyousee,right?
Speaker 1
Actually, that's a choice. You can have your Twitter feed go just time-based or you can ask the algorithm. In my case, I asked the algorithm and it's a way better feed than the one that's purely time-based with everyone in it. So I like the algorithm, but other people might hate it.
Words and timings
Actually,that'sachoice.YoucanhaveyourTwitterfeedgojusttime-basedoryoucanaskthealgorithm.Inmycase,Iaskedthealgorithmandit'sawaybetterfeedthantheonethat'spurelytime-basedwitheveryoneinit.SoIlikethealgorithm,butotherpeoplemighthateit.
Speaker 2
It's entirely arbitrary.
Words and timings
It'sentirelyarbitrary.
Speaker 1
absolutely 100% arbitrary you can get anything or anyone yeah yeah you just go and switch it to later then somebody would say well you've made the decision to go to to x you could have gone to threads or tuk-tuk yeah but i actually i don't think curation of content is is is the problem here the problem is the insane belief that you can create an ideologically acceptable feed for yourself and not see stuff you disagree with because if you think about it you know sitting in any workplace or any classroom you'd never believe you could get rid of the people you disagree with so why on social media do we have the the goal to believe that we can erase disagreement so maybe there's a difference between Gem and I
Words and timings
absolutely100%arbitraryyoucangetanythingoranyoneyeahyeahyoujustgoandswitchittolaterthensomebodywouldsaywellyou'vemadethedecisiontogototoxyoucouldhavegonetothreadsortuk-tukyeahbutiactuallyidon'tthinkcurationofcontentisisistheproblemheretheproblemistheinsanebeliefthatyoucancreateanideologicallyacceptablefeedforyourselfandnotseestuffyoudisagreewithbecauseifyouthinkaboutityouknowsittinginanyworkplaceoranyclassroomyou'dneverbelieveyoucouldgetridofthepeopleyoudisagreewithsowhyonsocialmediadowehavethethegoaltobelievethatwecanerasedisagreementsomaybethere'sadifferencebetweenGemandI
Speaker 2
and Google Search. In the old days, when you went to Google and you asked for something, it would give you 10 options. You don't get those options with Gemini, do you? So is the problem the medium itself that with AI you only see one thing well that's it up to you you can say to Gemini or OpenAI please give me the 10 most popular answers to the following question uh with a wide range that might be Keith maybe I'm thinking aloud here maybe that's because I don't see we're going to continually be having these conversations maybe that's the way to address this is that anytime you enter anything into any of these AI algorithms you get 10 responses going from what it sees as the most liberal to the most reactionary I think it depends what you're looking for I mean I think you've got to trust individuals to know how to ask questions and and not try to get in between them and the answer
Words and timings
andGoogleSearch.Intheolddays,whenyouwenttoGoogleandyouaskedforsomething,itwouldgiveyou10options.Youdon'tgetthoseoptionswithGemini,doyou?SoistheproblemthemediumitselfthatwithAIyouonlyseeonethingwellthat'situptoyouyoucansaytoGeminiorOpenAIpleasegivemethe10mostpopularanswerstothefollowingquestionuhwithawiderangethatmightbeKeithmaybeI'mthinkingaloudheremaybethat'sbecauseIdon'tseewe'regoingtocontinuallybehavingtheseconversationsmaybethat'sthewaytoaddressthisisthatanytimeyouenteranythingintoanyoftheseAIalgorithmsyouget10responsesgoingfromwhatitseesasthemostliberaltothemostreactionaryIthinkitdependswhatyou'relookingforImeanIthinkyou'vegottotrustindividualstoknowhowtoaskquestionsandandnottrytogetinbetweenthemandtheanswer
Speaker 1
which implies that you know better than either them or the AI.
Words and timings
whichimpliesthatyouknowbetterthaneitherthemortheAI.
Speaker 2
Right.
Words and timings
Right.
Speaker 1
This idea that there are arbiters of content, that Supreme Court case, by the way, is all about that. Right.
Words and timings
Thisideathattherearearbitersofcontent,thatSupremeCourtcase,bytheway,isallaboutthat.Right.
Speaker 2
But the point is that you're always going to have that. So should there be an algorithm where it says Tell me what a Nazi soldier would look like, and I'm interested in our 2024 version versus the historical one. So you'd always have that option.
Words and timings
Butthepointisthatyou'realwaysgoingtohavethat.SoshouldtherebeanalgorithmwhereitsaysTellmewhataNazisoldierwouldlooklike,andI'minterestedinour2024versionversusthehistoricalone.Soyou'dalwayshavethatoption.
Speaker 1
Yeah, you can ask for anything if you're specific. What Google did is modify your query without your knowledge in order to produce results it believed would not get it into trouble. So I've said this many times, the minute you become an editor,
Words and timings
Yeah,youcanaskforanythingifyou'respecific.WhatGoogledidismodifyyourquerywithoutyourknowledgeinordertoproduceresultsitbelievedwouldnotgetitintotrouble.SoI'vesaidthismanytimes,theminuteyoubecomeaneditor,
Speaker 2
you know isn't that I mean this is maybe where you and I disagree you're always going to be an editor the question is and no you don't have to be why I mean you the question is how you put the question so yeah but you don't want Google to modify your question after you put it we can give you options of what you see so if you say I want an image of a Nazi soldier it can be the image by Nazis, by 2024 culture warriors, by men, by women, by Jews. I mean, there's all sorts of versions we can get of Nazi soldiers.
Words and timings
youknowisn'tthatImeanthisismaybewhereyouandIdisagreeyou'realwaysgoingtobeaneditorthequestionisandnoyoudon'thavetobewhyImeanyouthequestionishowyouputthequestionsoyeahbutyoudon'twantGoogletomodifyyourquestionafteryouputitwecangiveyouoptionsofwhatyouseesoifyousayIwantanimageofaNazisoldieritcanbetheimagebyNazis,by2024culturewarriors,bymen,bywomen,byJews.Imean,there'sallsortsofversionswecangetofNazisoldiers.
Speaker 1
Yeah, you can ask for anything, but you're missing my point. My point is that can you trust the interface you're typing into not to change your request without your knowledge?
Words and timings
Yeah,youcanaskforanything,butyou'remissingmypoint.Mypointisthatcanyoutrusttheinterfaceyou'retypingintonottochangeyourrequestwithoutyourknowledge?
Speaker 2
Well, you should be able to, shouldn't you?
Words and timings
Well,youshouldbeableto,shouldn'tyou?
Speaker 1
You should be able to. That's the very point. Google broke that trust.
Words and timings
Youshouldbeableto.That'stheverypoint.Googlebrokethattrust.
Speaker 2
They did. They won't break it in the future. How do we get beyond this to be more explicit in terms of being more honest with the user about the kind of information visually or textually that they see?
Words and timings
Theydid.Theywon'tbreakitinthefuture.Howdowegetbeyondthistobemoreexplicitintermsofbeingmorehonestwiththeuseraboutthekindofinformationvisuallyortextuallythattheysee?
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think the user should be told you're interacting with an AI at a very early stage of its development. It's prone to make mistakes. Please modify your queries to improve the results you get if you don't like the ones you see. And it's between you and the AI. Good luck.
Words and timings
Yeah,Ithinktheusershouldbetoldyou'reinteractingwithanAIataveryearlystageofitsdevelopment.It'spronetomakemistakes.Pleasemodifyyourqueriestoimprovetheresultsyougetifyoudon'tliketheonesyousee.Andit'sbetweenyouandtheAI.Goodluck.
Speaker 2
yeah but the point I'm trying to make maybe this is where you and I disagree is there's always someone something behind the AI the AI is a product of a company there's a business model there also I mean one of the reasons perhaps why Google's struggling so much is because they struggled in the early days of search they didn't have a business model but they were a startup so it didn't matter and no one knew anything they were doing they're also presumably searching for a business model they're a business they're not a public service
Words and timings
yeahbutthepointI'mtryingtomakemaybethisiswhereyouandIdisagreeisthere'salwayssomeonesomethingbehindtheAItheAIisaproductofacompanythere'sabusinessmodeltherealsoImeanoneofthereasonsperhapswhyGoogle'sstrugglingsomuchisbecausetheystruggledintheearlydaysofsearchtheydidn'thaveabusinessmodelbuttheywereastartupsoitdidn'tmatterandnooneknewanythingtheyweredoingthey'realsopresumablysearchingforabusinessmodelthey'reabusinessthey'renotapublicservice
Speaker 1
I worked with Google before they had a business model and they had 25 million dollars in the bank in those days 1997-98 and they were not particularly preoccupied with business model they just wanted to be the best search engine and they came to business model later now they had the luck but my point is they had the luxury because firstly they had patient VCs or VCs with a degree of patience and they were a startup so no one really knew what they were doing and then in the end Schmidt came in and forced them to address their business model well no that was much later they fixed the business model well before Schmidt they invented AdSense and AdWords and the idea that you could be at the top of search where initially it didn't even say it was an ad but it later on they were they were anti-ad in the first place so they kind of swallowed their dislike of yes correct correct exactly right just like open ai has moved from being open source to being commercial so that's that's a normal path what's happening now is a bit different google is in fear of losing its business model it is acutely aware that ai is not a replacement at the business model level so despite that they have to innovate there because otherwise they're going to lose all their users or not all but a lot of their users to AI so it's the it's the it's the AOL Yahoo problem of It is. It's the innovator's dilemma.
Words and timings
IworkedwithGooglebeforetheyhadabusinessmodelandtheyhad25milliondollarsinthebankinthosedays1997-98andtheywerenotparticularlypreoccupiedwithbusinessmodeltheyjustwantedtobethebestsearchengineandtheycametobusinessmodellaternowtheyhadtheluckbutmypointistheyhadtheluxurybecausefirstlytheyhadpatientVCsorVCswithadegreeofpatienceandtheywereastartupsonoonereallyknewwhattheyweredoingandthenintheendSchmidtcameinandforcedthemtoaddresstheirbusinessmodelwellnothatwasmuchlatertheyfixedthebusinessmodelwellbeforeSchmidttheyinventedAdSenseandAdWordsandtheideathatyoucouldbeatthetopofsearchwhereinitiallyitdidn'tevensayitwasanadbutitlaterontheyweretheywereanti-adinthefirstplacesotheykindofswallowedtheirdislikeofyescorrectcorrectexactlyrightjustlikeopenaihasmovedfrombeingopensourcetobeingcommercialsothat'sthat'sanormalpathwhat'shappeningnowisabitdifferentgoogleisinfearoflosingitsbusinessmodelitisacutelyawarethataiisnotareplacementatthebusinessmodellevelsodespitethattheyhavetoinnovatetherebecauseotherwisethey'regoingtolosealltheirusersornotallbutalotoftheiruserstoAIsoit'stheit'stheit'stheAOLYahooproblemofItis.It'stheinnovator'sdilemma.
Speaker 2
Which always happens, which happens to everybody, every company from Microsoft onwards. I wonder what the Microsoft people must be thinking because they've been through this. Why is Microsoft able to dodge some of these crises even though they're equally large with layers of bureaucracy and an Indian CEO who wasn't the original founder? What's Microsoft doing right, do you think, that Google isn't?
Words and timings
Whichalwayshappens,whichhappenstoeverybody,everycompanyfromMicrosoftonwards.IwonderwhattheMicrosoftpeoplemustbethinkingbecausethey'vebeenthroughthis.WhyisMicrosoftabletododgesomeofthesecriseseventhoughthey'reequallylargewithlayersofbureaucracyandanIndianCEOwhowasn'ttheoriginalfounder?What'sMicrosoftdoingright,doyouthink,thatGoogleisn't?
Speaker 1
Microsoft, I don't know whether it was accidental or on purpose, but they've played a clever game of supporting OpenAI and now Mistral, which they invested in this week, the French AI company. And so they are supporting third parties using their infrastructure as currency and therefore are not directing the firing line either as an innovator because they're sitting behind other people's tech and decisions whereas Google doesn't have that luxury they didn't get those investments and it would be against their nature to do that because they're not invented here kind of organization culturally and therefore they take it Direct hits when things go wrong. Microsoft doesn't. OpenAI takes those hits.
Words and timings
Microsoft,Idon'tknowwhetheritwasaccidentaloronpurpose,butthey'veplayedaclevergameofsupportingOpenAIandnowMistral,whichtheyinvestedinthisweek,theFrenchAIcompany.Andsotheyaresupportingthirdpartiesusingtheirinfrastructureascurrencyandthereforearenotdirectingthefiringlineeitherasaninnovatorbecausethey'resittingbehindotherpeople'stechanddecisionswhereasGoogledoesn'thavethatluxurytheydidn'tgetthoseinvestmentsanditwouldbeagainsttheirnaturetodothatbecausethey'renotinventedherekindoforganizationculturallyandthereforetheytakeitDirecthitswhenthingsgowrong.Microsoftdoesn't.OpenAItakesthosehits.
Speaker 2
Do you think that Google is in crisis? Do you think that the CEO is going to be pushed out?
Words and timings
DoyouthinkthatGoogleisincrisis?DoyouthinkthattheCEOisgoingtobepushedout?
Speaker 1
one would hope not I mean one hope right well because he's a decent CEO you give people a chance to learn from their errors I don't see any reason to fire him to be honest I mean you'd have to fire every university administration if you're firing him because they do this kind of stuff every single day in class say that word again class class
Words and timings
onewouldhopenotImeanonehoperightwellbecausehe'sadecentCEOyougivepeopleachancetolearnfromtheirerrorsIdon'tseeanyreasontofirehimtobehonestImeanyou'dhavetofireeveryuniversityadministrationifyou'refiringhimbecausetheydothiskindofstuffeverysingledayinclasssaythatwordagainclassclass
Speaker 2
Yeah, but universities are in a different business from Google. He's not being analyzed in whether he's fair or not or just. He's being analyzed in how much money is made. The investors have lost billions this week because of the screw-up. Someone's going to push him out, aren't they?
Words and timings
Yeah,butuniversitiesareinadifferentbusinessfromGoogle.He'snotbeinganalyzedinwhetherhe'sfairornotorjust.He'sbeinganalyzedinhowmuchmoneyismade.Theinvestorshavelostbillionsthisweekbecauseofthescrew-up.Someone'sgoingtopushhimout,aren'tthey?
Speaker 1
Yeah, but if you look at their stock chart, the billions they've lost are billions that they didn't even have a few months ago because their stock price has gone up so much.
Words and timings
Yeah,butifyoulookattheirstockchart,thebillionsthey'velostarebillionsthattheydidn'tevenhaveafewmonthsagobecausetheirstockpricehasgoneupsomuch.
Speaker 1
due to his success.
Words and timings
duetohissuccess.
Speaker 2
You're in Palo Alto, so you mix with all these big tech people. Is there something particularly broken in your view about Google culture?
Words and timings
You'reinPaloAlto,soyoumixwithallthesebigtechpeople.IstheresomethingparticularlybrokeninyourviewaboutGoogleculture?
Speaker 1
Yes, but that's true of almost every culture.
Words and timings
Yes,butthat'strueofalmosteveryculture.
Speaker 2
I think Apple is... I asked you a simple question, Keith. I said yes.
Words and timings
IthinkAppleis...Iaskedyouasimplequestion,Keith.Isaidyes.
Speaker 1
I said yes, but Google isn't any more subject to those pressures than anyone. If you look at Apple, actually, Apple's probably done the best job of being resilient in the face of these cultural issues.
Words and timings
Isaidyes,butGoogleisn'tanymoresubjecttothosepressuresthananyone.IfyoulookatApple,actually,Apple'sprobablydonethebestjobofbeingresilientinthefaceoftheseculturalissues.
Speaker 2
yeah but then Apple and this takes us off Google to Apple another piece of news today and Apple did a great job in hiding it is they've cancelled their electric car pants billions of dollars they completely fucked up but no one's calling for Tim Cook's head what why have they done this isn't this a massive screw-up of Apple even bigger than Gemini
Words and timings
yeahbutthenAppleandthistakesusoffGoogletoAppleanotherpieceofnewstodayandAppledidagreatjobinhidingitisthey'vecancelledtheirelectriccarpantsbillionsofdollarstheycompletelyfuckedupbutnoone'scallingforTimCook'sheadwhatwhyhavetheydonethisisn'tthisamassivescrew-upofAppleevenbiggerthanGemini
Speaker 1
but it's only a screw up if you assume success and with electric cars Apple has consistently assumed failure but invested nonetheless to see if they can do it so Apple didn't ever say we're going to make an electric car they've never said that they've spent a lot of money seeing if they can and they've briefed analysts on how high the bar is now. To be honest, it makes Elon Musk look fantastic that they've done this because if Apple can't do it and he can, what does that say about him? So I don't think there's a lot of shame in failed experiments. There's more shame to not have done the experiment. Now, obviously, that's relative. Apple has a lot of cash. and this is a small experiment as a proportion of its cash.
Words and timings
butit'sonlyascrewupifyouassumesuccessandwithelectriccarsApplehasconsistentlyassumedfailurebutinvestednonethelesstoseeiftheycandoitsoAppledidn'teversaywe'regoingtomakeanelectriccarthey'veneversaidthatthey'vespentalotofmoneyseeingiftheycanandthey'vebriefedanalystsonhowhighthebarisnow.Tobehonest,itmakesElonMusklookfantasticthatthey'vedonethisbecauseifApplecan'tdoitandhecan,whatdoesthatsayabouthim?SoIdon'tthinkthere'salotofshameinfailedexperiments.There'smoreshametonothavedonetheexperiment.Now,obviously,that'srelative.Applehasalotofcash.andthisisasmallexperimentasaproportionofitscash.
Speaker 2
But at one point, two or three years ago, you claimed that the future of Apple was with its cars and you weren't alone.
Words and timings
Butatonepoint,twoorthreeyearsago,youclaimedthatthefutureofApplewaswithitscarsandyouweren'talone.
Speaker 1
I don't know if I did that, actually. I remember the front cover we made with the Apple car and I think we were sceptics. You weren't. I was.
Words and timings
Idon'tknowifIdidthat,actually.IrememberthefrontcoverwemadewiththeApplecarandIthinkweweresceptics.Youweren't.Iwas.
Speaker 2
I'm always a sceptic, man. You believed that there was a massive market for an Apple car. I think there would be if they can make one but I think what they've decided is they can't be a massive if you and I could make one that's not saying anything less massive than Apple I don't think our brand carries the same kudos oh what's the right word you think they could have dumped the car without the relative success of their new Vision Pro that they one experiment is still alive so they could quietly dump the car
Words and timings
I'malwaysasceptic,man.YoubelievedthattherewasamassivemarketforanApplecar.IthinktherewouldbeiftheycanmakeonebutIthinkwhatthey'vedecidedistheycan'tbeamassiveifyouandIcouldmakeonethat'snotsayinganythinglessmassivethanAppleIdon'tthinkourbrandcarriesthesamekudosohwhat'stherightwordyouthinktheycouldhavedumpedthecarwithouttherelativesuccessoftheirnewVisionProthattheyoneexperimentisstillalivesotheycouldquietlydumpthecar
Speaker 1
I do not think Apple is constrained to the point where they trade off different initiatives money-wise but I think they are talent-wise so I think the talent being applied to AI which is the real story here is probably more important than being applied to a car right now because if they fall behind with AI They'll Be in Trouble. I mean, if you think about Siri, Siri is a natural language processing front end that has a really stupid back end.
Words and timings
IdonotthinkAppleisconstrainedtothepointwheretheytradeoffdifferentinitiativesmoney-wisebutIthinktheyaretalent-wisesoIthinkthetalentbeingappliedtoAIwhichistherealstoryhereisprobablymoreimportantthanbeingappliedtoacarrightnowbecauseiftheyfallbehindwithAIThey'llBeinTrouble.Imean,ifyouthinkaboutSiri,Siriisanaturallanguageprocessingfrontendthathasareallystupidbackend.
Speaker 3
Okay, I found this on the web for it's a natural language processing front end.
Words and timings
Okay,Ifoundthisonthewebforit'sanaturallanguageprocessingfrontend.
Speaker 2
Thank you. I'm following you, Keith. AI is everywhere. I hope it's not a black Nazi.
Words and timings
Thankyou.I'mfollowingyou,Keith.AIiseverywhere.Ihopeit'snotablackNazi.
Speaker 1
but you notice what Siri just said is she said um I found this on the web the reason Siri says I found this on the web is Siri does not have an AI back end that is capable of answering questions it has a hand-coded database mapping system mapping questions to answers that is manual so Apple you know I have a really big back end Keith elephant yeah
Words and timings
butyounoticewhatSirijustsaidisshesaidumIfoundthisonthewebthereasonSirisaysIfoundthisonthewebisSiridoesnothaveanAIbackendthatiscapableofansweringquestionsithasahand-codeddatabasemappingsystemmappingquestionstoanswersthatismanualsoAppleyouknowIhaveareallybigbackendKeithelephantyeah
Speaker 2
Solid back ends. I wonder when it comes to the Apple board versus the Google board, when the Google board's looking at what Tim Cook has accomplished at Apple, I mean, Cook succeeded jobs. Everyone predicted that Cook would be a catastrophe. He hasn't been.
Words and timings
Solidbackends.IwonderwhenitcomestotheAppleboardversustheGoogleboard,whentheGoogleboard'slookingatwhatTimCookhasaccomplishedatApple,Imean,Cooksucceededjobs.EveryonepredictedthatCookwouldbeacatastrophe.Hehasn'tbeen.
Speaker 2
Doesn't anything come down to leadership anymore? Are you a structuralist when it comes to controlling these big tech companies? I mean, if Cook was at Google, he would have got a job, wouldn't he?
Words and timings
Doesn'tanythingcomedowntoleadershipanymore?Areyouastructuralistwhenitcomestocontrollingthesebigtechcompanies?Imean,ifCookwasatGoogle,hewouldhavegotajob,wouldn'the?
Speaker 1
Yeah, you're not wrong, Andrew. I think leadership always has to be accountable, and I never like leaders who blame the soldiers for the problems. And I do think the leadership of Google has to be accountable for what it did, and I'm not trying to get away from that. But I am also saying what they did is entirely consistent with the way society is going they were in line it just was an extreme with ridiculous outcomes of something that's now considered normal and good.
Words and timings
Yeah,you'renotwrong,Andrew.Ithinkleadershipalwayshastobeaccountable,andIneverlikeleaderswhoblamethesoldiersfortheproblems.AndIdothinktheleadershipofGooglehastobeaccountableforwhatitdid,andI'mnottryingtogetawayfromthat.ButIamalsosayingwhattheydidisentirelyconsistentwiththewaysocietyisgoingtheywereinlineitjustwasanextremewithridiculousoutcomesofsomethingthat'snowconsiderednormalandgood.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I have to admit, and we'll leave this here, I want to be very clear, I strongly disagree. I think Google is an outlier, and this idea that somehow Google reflects society to me is absurd. And I obviously know something about Google, but... Who knows? This will be a subject we come back to. What about Startup of the Week, a more cheerful subject?
Words and timings
Yeah,Ihavetoadmit,andwe'llleavethishere,Iwanttobeveryclear,Istronglydisagree.IthinkGoogleisanoutlier,andthisideathatsomehowGooglereflectssocietytomeisabsurd.AndIobviouslyknowsomethingaboutGoogle,but...Whoknows?Thiswillbeasubjectwecomebackto.WhataboutStartupoftheWeek,amorecheerfulsubject?
Speaker 1
Robots.
Words and timings
Robots.
Speaker 2
Robots. They're the future, I've heard. Not Elephant.
Words and timings
Robots.They'rethefuture,I'veheard.NotElephant.
Speaker 1
So this company figure is the company that one of the car companies partnered with a few weeks ago, and we mentioned it on the show, where they're going to do these humanoid-style robots to do some work on the production line. And so they announced this week that they've raised, you know, more than half a billion dollars from Microsoft.
Words and timings
Sothiscompanyfigureisthecompanythatoneofthecarcompaniespartneredwithafewweeksago,andwementioneditontheshow,wherethey'regoingtodothesehumanoid-stylerobotstodosomeworkontheproductionline.Andsotheyannouncedthisweekthatthey'veraised,youknow,morethanhalfabilliondollarsfromMicrosoft.
Speaker 2
75 million. Microsoft, OpenAI, Amazon, Nvidia, Intel, all the big players.
Words and timings
75million.Microsoft,OpenAI,Amazon,Nvidia,Intel,allthebigplayers.
Speaker 1
When you see that, not Google, because Google... Well, they missed out by design because they're a let's build it ourselves kind of company. And Microsoft used to be that, but now have realized that their platform is more valuable than owning the front end, if you will. so yeah I think this is a sign of the times this investment and we're going to see more of it but it also says that humanoid robots are closer to reality what is a humanoid robot you mean a robot that looks like a human yeah it's got two legs two arms what look like eyes and is capable of doing tasks that usually require human dexterity so we're heading for a Blade Runner like future where we won't be able to distinguish between robots and humans to me it looks like um not what's this Star Wars robot that walks and talks Luke Skywalker no that's the human the robot uh it's not R2-D2 it's C-3PO one of those I forget which one it is somebody will tell me
Words and timings
Whenyouseethat,notGoogle,becauseGoogle...Well,theymissedoutbydesignbecausethey'realet'sbuilditourselveskindofcompany.AndMicrosoftusedtobethat,butnowhaverealizedthattheirplatformismorevaluablethanowningthefrontend,ifyouwill.soyeahIthinkthisisasignofthetimesthisinvestmentandwe'regoingtoseemoreofitbutitalsosaysthathumanoidrobotsareclosertorealitywhatisahumanoidrobotyoumeanarobotthatlookslikeahumanyeahit'sgottwolegstwoarmswhatlooklikeeyesandiscapableofdoingtasksthatusuallyrequirehumandexteritysowe'reheadingforaBladeRunnerlikefuturewherewewon'tbeabletodistinguishbetweenrobotsandhumanstomeitlookslikeumnotwhat'sthisStarWarsrobotthatwalksandtalksLukeSkywalkernothat'sthehumantherobotuhit'snotR2-D2it'sC-3POoneofthoseIforgetwhichoneitissomebodywilltellme
Speaker 2
So you think that figure is for real that usually your startup of the week is either usually it's not a startup and it doesn't seem particularly promising but this one's for real it's for real but it is valued at 2.6 billion so it doesn't really qualify as a startup well it's a unicorn rather rather like that elephant in the room you know or maybe actually the more accurate definition of a unicorn is a black a black nazi soldier it's impossible exactly finally tweet of the week bringing us down to earth which is a really uh bracing tweet for startup entrepreneurs by Amy Lewin what was Amy saying Keith well this is Hopin the company we've mentioned quite a bit over the years here
Words and timings
Soyouthinkthatfigureisforrealthatusuallyyourstartupoftheweekiseitherusuallyit'snotastartupanditdoesn'tseemparticularlypromisingbutthisone'sforrealit'sforrealbutitisvaluedat2.6billionsoitdoesn'treallyqualifyasastartupwellit'saunicornratherratherlikethatelephantintheroomyouknowormaybeactuallythemoreaccuratedefinitionofaunicornisablackablacknazisoldierit'simpossibleexactlyfinallytweetoftheweekbringingusdowntoearthwhichisareallyuhbracingtweetforstartupentrepreneursbyAmyLewinwhatwasAmysayingKeithwellthisisHopinthecompanywe'vementionedquiteabitovertheyearshere
Speaker 1
is filed for liquidation in the UK. The company itself still exists as a US corporation, but they're liquidating their base company that was the original founding company in the UK. And Reshma Sohoni, who was one of the early investors and is a personal friend from Seedcamp, is interviewed talking about what went wrong. So it's actually quite an interesting thread.
Words and timings
isfiledforliquidationintheUK.ThecompanyitselfstillexistsasaUScorporation,butthey'reliquidatingtheirbasecompanythatwastheoriginalfoundingcompanyintheUK.AndReshmaSohoni,whowasoneoftheearlyinvestorsandisapersonalfriendfromSeedcamp,isinterviewedtalkingaboutwhatwentwrong.Soit'sactuallyquiteaninterestingthread.
Speaker 2
What went wrong? Is this the future of Google?
Words and timings
Whatwentwrong?IsthisthefutureofGoogle?
Speaker 1
she talked about investors piling in not wanting to do due diligence because they just wanted to get in well that's again not the first or the last time do any tech people ever learn anything from history Well, you learn that if you get in early, you make a lot of money as well. So there's more than one lesson. And getting money into a company that's growing and hot is not the worst mistake in the world. Putting money into one that isn't growing and isn't hot is a worse mistake than that.
Words and timings
shetalkedaboutinvestorspilinginnotwantingtododuediligencebecausetheyjustwantedtogetinwellthat'sagainnotthefirstorthelasttimedoanytechpeopleeverlearnanythingfromhistoryWell,youlearnthatifyougetinearly,youmakealotofmoneyaswell.Sothere'smorethanonelesson.Andgettingmoneyintoacompanythat'sgrowingandhotisnottheworstmistakeintheworld.Puttingmoneyintoonethatisn'tgrowingandisn'thotisaworsemistakethanthat.
Speaker 2
So are there many hop-ins around now, companies that are worth in the billions that tomorrow will be worth zero, maybe figure?
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Soaretheremanyhop-insaroundnow,companiesthatareworthinthebillionsthattomorrowwillbeworthzero,maybefigure?
Speaker 1
it's hard to predict that which ones were worth zero but there's some there's some very very weighty valuations out there um you know perplexity ai which is the search engine replacement for google which by the way is fantastic it really is good if you haven't tried perplexity ai you should so perplexity sort of squares the circle between search
Words and timings
it'shardtopredictthatwhichoneswereworthzerobutthere'ssomethere'ssomeveryveryweightyvaluationsoutthereumyouknowperplexityaiwhichisthesearchenginereplacementforgooglewhichbythewayisfantasticitreallyisgoodifyouhaven'ttriedperplexityaiyoushouldsoperplexitysortofsquaresthecirclebetweensearch
Speaker 2
and AI, is that right?
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andAI,isthatright?
Speaker 1
Correct. And then there's the Arc browser, ARC, which is from... I've tried, which is a bit confusing. It's a bit confusing user interface, but... And it's, by the way, it's Chrome with a new shell around it. So it's just Chrome. Most of the coding is done by Chrome developers. and Chrome is open source, it's called Chromium. And they've put Perplexity AI in as an option. So I think the browser company is the most challenged to justify its valuation.
Words and timings
Correct.Andthenthere'stheArcbrowser,ARC,whichisfrom...I'vetried,whichisabitconfusing.It'sabitconfusinguserinterface,but...Andit's,bytheway,it'sChromewithanewshellaroundit.Soit'sjustChrome.MostofthecodingisdonebyChromedevelopers.andChromeisopensource,it'scalledChromium.Andthey'veputPerplexityAIinasanoption.SoIthinkthebrowsercompanyisthemostchallengedtojustifyitsvaluation.
Speaker 2
So final question, Keith, the real elephant in the room, when you get the call from the Google board, are you going to take up the challenge of becoming Google CEO?
Words and timings
Sofinalquestion,Keith,therealelephantintheroom,whenyougetthecallfromtheGoogleboard,areyougoingtotakeupthechallengeofbecomingGoogleCEO?
Speaker 1
you know people don't tend to hire people that are about to become white men white old men like you and I old is the word I was thinking of yeah you don't have any ethnicity you're not even Jewish I'm Yorkshire Yorkshire is an ethnicity to anyone who comes from there yeah and you've been persecuted over the ages by the people from Lancashire haven't you can't you claim a tragic history as a collective I think we won the War of the Roses, if I'm not mistaken. You've never experienced any genocide? I've never experienced any genocide.
Words and timings
youknowpeopledon'ttendtohirepeoplethatareabouttobecomewhitemenwhiteoldmenlikeyouandIoldisthewordIwasthinkingofyeahyoudon'thaveanyethnicityyou'renotevenJewishI'mYorkshireYorkshireisanethnicitytoanyonewhocomesfromthereyeahandyou'vebeenpersecutedovertheagesbythepeoplefromLancashirehaven'tyoucan'tyouclaimatragichistoryasacollectiveIthinkwewontheWaroftheRoses,ifI'mnotmistaken.You'veneverexperiencedanygenocide?I'veneverexperiencedanygenocide.
Speaker 2
Well, you're not going to be CEO of Google then?
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Well,you'renotgoingtobeCEOofGooglethen?
Speaker 1
Andrew, you're in fine form this week.
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Andrew,you'reinfineformthisweek.
Speaker
Come on!
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Comeon!
Speaker 3
I've got sunshine on a cloudy day
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I'vegotsunshineonacloudyday
Speaker 3
When it's cold outside I've got the Monday morning I guess you say What can make me feel this way? It's minor love I'm talking about
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Whenit'scoldoutsideI'vegottheMondaymorningIguessyousayWhatcanmakemefeelthisway?It'sminorloveI'mtalkingabout